Top gear: 80's hot hatches vs modern

[The Beard]

you confuse me/
this engine was the 2.3 as fitted to magnums and later bedford cf
blydstein worked on it
where did the v8 bit come from?

I belive they made a v8 ferenza for the South African market. They also raced them over here in the 70's - it was known as Baby Bertha and I bet it sounded awesome

In the '60s there were plans to build a couple of small V8s. Initially 3 or 4 litres in capacity. Then along came one of the first of the energy crises so they binned the plan and carried on with their 3.3 litre straight 6 instead. That was a bit sad as it dated back to the '50s so wasn't exactly state of the art. It was considerably older than its arch enemy the Ford Essex V6.

They ended up with 1.6 and 2.0 litre slant 4s which meant they had the block, pistons, con-rods and bottom end of the V8 original. The rally Chevette HS2300s used to put out around 235bhp with pretty much a standard engine from the head gasket down. The pistons would probably have been high compression and made of higher grade steel, but that engine bore far more of a resemblance to the showroom product than, for instance, the Escort RS1600, which became closer and closer to a Cosworth BDA, or even a BDG. The RS1600 later became the RS 1800 which itself ended up with a 2 litre engine despite still being called an 1800.

Most of the earlier rally cars were based around the SOHC 8v head and it was the racing Firenza that pioneered the 16v head, but when it came to competing with Ford, FIAT and the like they had to start homologation procedures and it was here that they nearly came a cropper. If you look at a "normal" twin cam with a 16v head, it sits fairly squarely on top of the engine. But because of its height, the Vauxhall engine was canted over at 45 degrees. If you do that with the Ford motor the head will be pointing at one of the front suspension turrets and for your local Ford dealer, even a Rally Sport dealer, that made working on the head more difficult and therefore more expensive for the customer. Vauxhall's answer was to fit two seperate cam covers and cant them upwards at 45 degrees.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq309/friendlyfire_photos/camerapics008.jpg

http://classiccarhunter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/vxchevette_engine.jpg

http://www.classicandperformancecar...re_library_UK/dir_987/car_photo_493579_25.jpg

If I've managed to do this correctly there should be 3 pictures here, one of a Magnum type SOHC 8v engine, one of the HS Twin cam 16v and one very similar to mine with twin Webers, or in this case, Dell 'Ortos.

Because of Lotus' alleged use of the Vauxhall 2 litre block for the new Elite in the '70s, there appeared to be a bit of a quid pro quo whereby Vauxhall used a Lotus head design to get their own 16valve but the design, as I said earlier, meant that on the production versions the only way the mechanics at your local dealer could adjust the tappets was to undo all the engine and gearbox mounts and block the motor up in order to clear the suspension turret, which might have meant having to disconnect the cooling system as well. Because of this they stepped the head but, bit naughty this, kept the Lotus style heads for competition. Unfortunately the motor sport authorities took exception to this as it broke homologation rules and Vauxhall had to revert to using their own head design.

Right, my brain hurts so it's time to go to bed.

 

[s and b]

In the '60s there were plans to build a couple of small V8s. Initially 3 or 4 litres in capacity. Then along came one of the first of the energy crises so they binned the plan and carried on with their 3.3 litre straight 6 instead. That was a bit sad as it dated back to the '50s so wasn't exactly state of the art. It was considerably older than its arch enemy the Ford Essex V6.

They ended up with 1.6 and 2.0 litre slant 4s which meant they had the block, pistons, con-rods and bottom end of the V8 original. The rally Chevette HS2300s used to put out around 235bhp with pretty much a standard engine from the head gasket down. The pistons would probably have been high compression and made of higher grade steel, but that engine bore far more of a resemblance to the showroom product than, for instance, the Escort RS1600, which became closer and closer to a Cosworth BDA, or even a BDG. The RS1600 later became the RS 1800 which itself ended up with a 2 litre engine despite still being called an 1800.

Most of the earlier rally cars were based around the SOHC 8v head and it was the racing Firenza that pioneered the 16v head, but when it came to competing with Ford, FIAT and the like they had to start homologation procedures and it was here that they nearly came a cropper. If you look at a "normal" twin cam with a 16v head, it sits fairly squarely on top of the engine. But because of its height, the Vauxhall engine was canted over at 45 degrees. If you do that with the Ford motor the head will be pointing at one of the front suspension turrets and for your local Ford dealer, even a Rally Sport dealer, that made working on the head more difficult and therefore more expensive for the customer. Vauxhall's answer was to fit two seperate cam covers and cant them upwards at 45 degrees.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq309/friendlyfire_photos/camerapics008.jpg

http://classiccarhunter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/vxchevette_engine.jpg

http://www.classicandperformancecar...re_library_UK/dir_987/car_photo_493579_25.jpg

If I've managed to do this correctly there should be 3 pictures here, one of a Magnum type SOHC 8v engine, one of the HS Twin cam 16v and one very similar to mine with twin Webers, or in this case, Dell 'Ortos.

Because of Lotus' alleged use of the Vauxhall 2 litre block for the new Elite in the '70s, there appeared to be a bit of a quid pro quo whereby Vauxhall used a Lotus head design to get their own 16valve but the design, as I said earlier, meant that on the production versions the only way the mechanics at your local dealer could adjust the tappets was to undo all the engine and gearbox mounts and block the motor up in order to clear the suspension turret, which might have meant having to disconnect the cooling system as well. Because of this they stepped the head but, bit naughty this, kept the Lotus style heads for competition. Unfortunately the motor sport authorities took exception to this as it broke homologation rules and Vauxhall had to revert to using their own head design.

Right, my brain hurts so it's time to go to bed.

sorry no wiser

 

[gadge]

sorry no wiser

Basically they were gonna make one then they didn't

 

[s and b]

Basically they were gonna make one then they didn't

ok ok

 

[The Beard]

Basically they were gonna make one then they didn't

Far too simplisitic. This reply needs at least 2,000 characters.

Basically (and I managed to cock one of the pictures up) they found that the original Lotus head design was both efficient and effective but, if you compare the images of the engine in the Lotus Sunbeam with the one in the Chevette you will see the different layout with the conventional one in the Sunbeam and the stepped design of the Chevette. The Vauxhall engineers discovered that it was difficult to get at the valve clearances with the Lotus designed head because of the suspension turrets so they put the stepped variety into production but carried on using the original design in competition which would have been in breach of homologation rules.

http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/12/62/89/79/talbot13.jpg

http://classiccarhunter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/vxchevette_engine.jpg

Think I've got the right images this time.

 

[The Beard]

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq309/friendlyfire_photos/camerapics008.jpg

http://classiccarhunter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/vxchevette_engine.jpg

http://www.classicandperformancecar...re_library_UK/dir_987/car_photo_493579_25.jpg

I included the above images to show

i) the 2300 in the first image is basically the version found in the Magnum, VX4/90 and Firenza HP an 8 valve motor with twin Stromberg carbs, possibly 175 CDs.

ii) is the HS 2300, a standard engine, again with twin Strombergs, and

iii) is very similar to the one I had with Webers/Dell O'rtos.

 

[The Beard]

I belive they made a v8 ferenza for the South African market. They also raced them over here in the 70's - it was known as Baby Bertha and I bet it sounded awesome

I must admit I'd never heard of the V8 Firenza, but then the South Africans were always a bit of a law unto themselves.

Baby Bertha was the Pheonix that rose from the ashes of Big Bertha which was a Ventora built around a space frame with a Repco Brabham F5000 engine. "Big" wiped the floor with the competition in saloon car racing but met an untimely end which (if my memory serves me right) involved a small (alright then, a big) fire. That period of saloon car racing, or Superloons, as they were known threw up some weird contraptions, including a Mk2 Escort with a Cosworth BDG F2 engine and a Skoda Coupe with a F1 Cossie V8 mounted behind the driver's seat.

"Baby" became even more successful and was also built around a space frame so bore about as much resemblance to the production model as Big Bertha.

 

[pooroldcodger]

I must admit I'd never heard of the V8 Firenza, but then the South Africans were always a bit of a law unto themselves.

Baby Bertha was the Pheonix that rose from the ashes of Big Bertha which was a Ventora built around a space frame with a Repco Brabham F5000 engine. "Big" wiped the floor with the competition in saloon car racing but met an untimely end which (if my memory serves me right) involved a small (alright then, a big) fire. That period of saloon car racing, or Superloons, as they were known threw up some weird contraptions, including a Mk2 Escort with a Cosworth BDG F2 engine and a Skoda Coupe with a F1 Cossie V8 mounted behind the driver's seat.

"Baby" became even more successful and was also built around a space frame so bore about as much resemblance to the production model as Big Bertha.

All this talk of Vauxhalls and Bill Blydenstein has got me all nostalgic!
If you can stop laughing long enough at the three lads by the tent, my blue Firenza is just behind.
Twin choke Weber 28/36 as I recall!

 

[gadge]

Hahahahaha looking gooood

Love the little Sud in the background aswell

 

[pooroldcodger]

Yes, well spotted!

 

[rkt2003]

My experiences with hot hatches were later than my friends but it was worth it to me,my first mk1 Uno Turbo was so much fun i still have fond memories ,it is still on this forum somewhere, as it was fully restored well after it left me of course in great condition,I then moved onto the mk2 turbo also loved the extra hp and better brakes ,but somehow the fun factor of the mk1 still was in my memory i think that was my favourite,after this i had a toyota corolla 1.6 gti that was well refined and virtually bullet proof just rust was a problem on the arches and sunroof ,but overall the mk1 Uno Turbo was still my favourite in my heart

 

[gadge]

Looks beautiful in black so the question is if you were at brands hatch and were faced with a 1.4 t-jet punto or an uno turbo, which one would you take for a spin

 

[rkt2003]

so the question is if you were at brands hatch and were faced with a 1.4 t-jet punto or an uno turbo, which one would you take for a spin

The Uno mk1 turbo of course especially with my stainless back box it was light and so quick off the mark those xr2 fiesta 1.6 owners were shocked that i passed

 

[StevenRB45]

The Uno mk1 turbo of course especially with my stainless back box it was light and so quick off the mark those xr2 fiesta 1.6 owners were shocked that i passed

Having owned a boggo uno as my 1st car I cannot imagine a scarier car than an uno turbo..however perhaps on the higher spec ones the feeling of travelling along in a rickety corrugated shed being battered by a storm was lessened.

 

[rkt2003]

the feeling of travelling along in a rickety corrugated shed being battered by a storm was lessened

Yes it was fine back then storms were brushed aside with ease, i to had a 45 fire engine uno gutless but got me from a to b

 

[StevenRB45]

Yes it was fine back then storms were brushed aside with ease, i to had a 45 fire engine uno gutless but got me from a to b

I had an early fire uno so 999cc 45 with a carb and four speeds in 2004 at full belt it just gave the impression of impending death...not for it but for you as it didn't stop or steer and the doors would have felt sturdier if they were made of felt, also 135 tyres gave it an interesting propensity for understeer followed by over steer if you backed out to correct it.

 

[The Beard]

All this talk of Vauxhalls and Bill Blydenstein has got me all nostalgic!
If you can stop laughing long enough at the three lads by the tent, my blue Firenza is just behind.
Twin choke Weber 28/36 as I recall!

Not to mention the Renault 12, the car with the squidgiest seats since the invention of the li-lo and whatever that was in tasteful, er, beige.

The Weber 28/36 must have been an aftermarket addition as the Firenza 2300s had twin Strombergs, 175CD variety if I remember correctly. Ford were favoured users of the Weber twin choke as most British makers preferred two seperate carbs.

Which reminds me (sound of members logging off all over the world) round about that time I was at (the parents) home when I got a phone call from Steve, a mate of mine.

"Did I fancy a game of snooker at the Garrick in Stockport?"

"Yeah, why not."

"I'll pick you up in half an hour."

Some of you, especially you POC, will know the Stockport area and may even be familiar with the roundabout on Bramhall Lane at its junction with Woodsmoor Lane just near the Jolly Sailor. When Steve arrived in his pride and joy, a Corsair GT Estate, he told me of his near miss coming along that road from Stockport. He was a mechanic and had taken this poorly 10-ish year old car from basket case to impeccable condition in his own time after work. The only problem he hadn't been able to iron out was a hesitation on full bore acceleration from low speed. He reckoned the second (larger) choke was sticking and was reluctant to kick in. He told me that as he rounded the island, which had a slight crest just on the apex, he clogged it and nothing happened......at least for a couple of seconds. It then tried to swap ends on him as the power got through to the damp road surface.

We had an evenly matched few games of snooker and on the way back we came to the roundabout. With a phrase later made popular by a certain J. Clarkson Esq., he turned onto the roundabout, gave it the full size 9 Doc Marten, and said: "WATCH THIS!"

True enough there was a brief pause before I was looking at a kerb, followed by the roundabout, followed by a kerb, followed by the roundabout followed by a tree. All the while Steve kept his toe in and twirled the wheel back and forward in true correct the oversteer technique as practiced by his hero Roger Clark then..........

Did I mention the tree? Thought so.

He was mortified. I helped out by laughing.

I never did apologise for that.

Mind you, it could be poetic justice for him stinking my Mum's car out with his Afghan coat. He was less than impressed when after that I made him put it in the boot.

 

[pooroldcodger]

Not to mention the Renault 12, the car with the squidgiest seats since the invention of the li-lo and whatever that was in tasteful, er, beige.

The Weber 28/36 must have been an aftermarket addition as the Firenza 2300s had twin Strombergs, 175CD variety if I remember correctly. Ford were favoured users of the Weber twin choke as most British makers preferred two seperate carbs.

Which reminds me (sound of members logging off all over the world) round about that time I was at (the parents) home when I got a phone call from Steve, a mate of mine.

"Did I fancy a game of snooker at the Garrick in Stockport?"

"Yeah, why not."

"I'll pick you up in half an hour."

Some of you, especially you POC, will know the Stockport area and may even be familiar with the roundabout on Bramhall Lane at its junction with Woodsmoor Lane just near the Jolly Sailor. When Steve arrived in his pride and joy, a Corsair GT Estate, he told me of his near miss coming along that road from Stockport. He was a mechanic and had taken this poorly 10-ish year old car from basket case to impeccable condition in his own time after work. The only problem he hadn't been able to iron out was a hesitation on full bore acceleration from low speed. He reckoned the second (larger) choke was sticking and was reluctant to kick in. He told me that as he rounded the island, which had a slight crest just on the apex, he clogged it and nothing happened......at least for a couple of seconds. It then tried to swap ends on him as the power got through to the damp road surface.

We had an evenly matched few games of snooker and on the way back we came to the roundabout. With a phrase later made popular by a certain J. Clarkson Esq., he turned onto the roundabout, gave it the full size 9 Doc Marten, and said: "WATCH THIS!"

True enough there was a brief pause before I was looking at a kerb, followed by the roundabout, followed by a kerb, followed by the roundabout followed by a tree. All the while Steve kept his toe in and twirled the wheel back and forward in true correct the oversteer technique as practiced by his hero Roger Clark then..........

Did I mention the tree? Thought so.

He was mortified. I helped out by laughing.

I never did apologise for that.

Mind you, it could be poetic justice for him stinking my Mum's car out with his Afghan coat. He was less than impressed when after that I made him put it in the boot.

Yes you are right, the Weber was added by me. It made a permanent hiss/buzzing noise when it was just on light throttle on the first choke, but when you booted it you were rewarded with a fantastic throaty intake roar as both chokes gulped your hard earned money down their throats!
To be honest the car wasn't great. It was only an 1800cc not a 2300 so it wasn't that quick, and only managed about 25mpg. The tyres were bigger than normal at the time as well (175's !!! Wow!) so they cost quite a bit.
I got rid of it and bought Chevette GLS which had less power but handled much better. That is apart from the time in Derbyshire in the dark when I lost it on a fast right hander (there was a stream of water I'd misse in the dark) and slid up a grass bank and I must have come within inches of a dry stone wall .

 

[The Beard]

Yes you are right, the Weber was added by me. It made a permanent hiss/buzzing noise when it was just on light throttle on the first choke, but when you booted it you were rewarded with a fantastic throaty intake roar as both chokes gulped your hard earned money down their throats!
To be honest the car wasn't great. It was only an 1800cc not a 2300 so it wasn't that quick, and only managed about 25mpg. The tyres were bigger than normal at the time as well (175's !!! Wow!) so they cost quite a bit.
I got rid of it and bought Chevette GLS which had less power but handled much better. That is apart from the time in Derbyshire in the dark when I lost it on a fast right hander (there was a stream of water I'd misse in the dark) and slid up a grass bank and I must have come within inches of a dry stone wall .

There was some consolation because 4 star was only 40-odd pence a gallon. Cars weren't that economical at all. My dad bought a VX 4/90 in 1971 and even with overdrive it struggled to better 25 mpg, the Ventora he had a couple of years later was even worse, especially as it was an automatic. The VX ran on Firestone Cross-plies but they were the same width as 165 SR13s. It's quite surprising when you think my Panda MJ came with 165s as standard on the factory alloys. My first car paid for with my own money was a '78 Chevette L. In quite a few respects it was a better car than the Fiesta 1.1L which a friend of mine had but the engine wasn't as keen to rev even though the ride and handling was better.

 

[The Beard]

I'ld say your spot on with that statement The Beard they had a more "stripped out" feel to them that made the driving experience a lot enjoyable. Sure the new ones are quicker, quiter and a lot more refined but I do wonder if you hired a track for the day and had three cars on test - a 2014 golf GTI, a 1988 RS Turbo or a 1988 1.6 pug GTI I wonder which everyone would choose first?

Just noticed this old thread but it has new meaning for me as Mrs. Beard's 156 has been put into semi-retirement and been replaced by a four year old Giulietta MA with only 23,000 miles on the clock, so it feels like it's just run-in.

With 170 bhp and a turbo, the Giuli feels a lot faster than the 156 if you get your toe in and it hangs on really well through the bends as well. But, it does feel less "organic" than the older car if that makes sense. There's something about the handling that lets you know other forces are at work rather than just inertia, momentum and the natural compliance of rubber.

I'm sure the MA is way more capable and able to cover the ground going cross country faster than the 156, but somehow I think I prefer the older car. At least I will once it's had a few bushes and a pair of suspension arms replaced. Oh, and some of the clag blasted off the bottom and it's been re-sealed.


And er, its windscreen has been replaced.

And a bit of bodywork has been cleaned up.

And some of the interior trim bits and pieces have been replaced and re-fitted

And...........

Thinking about the earlier sections of this thread though, in the '70s and '80s there were a number of cars which you could buy from your local dealer that had the basis of a performance or competition car but none of the luxury bits and pieces, such as the Escort Mexico, Sunbeam Ti and later on there was a Peugeot Rallye which, if my memory serves me correctly was a 106. These came about with the philosophy of it being a bit daft to buy a luxury performance car only to throw most of the kit out in the name of lightness. Some of them also came with the basic flat seats of the cheapest model as you were going to fit rally specific items anyway.