Are modern cars too good?

[puntofan01]

I was under the impression there are front and rear seat occupancy scores which would suggest they use sensing dummies in both.

Depending on circumstances curtains could be advantageous, stopping flailing limbs going out of broken windows stopping heads coming into direct contact with the front panel of high riding cars. But these aren't tested by NCAP so in testing terms not necessary.

Ncap use child and baby dummies in the back, and the side impact score is only taken from the driver dummy readings.

And that was my exact point! Hence, why in my opinion, it's a bit disgraceful that some manufacturers are designing side impact protection systems that only protect front occupants, seemingly because they know they can still be awarded high ratings!

 

[AndyRKett]

And that was my exact point! Hence, why in my opinion, it's a bit disgraceful that some manufacturers are designing side impact protection systems that only protect front occupants, seemingly because they know they can still be awarded high ratings!

As pointed out (but you ignored it) curtain airbags are only marginally more effective than than the seat head and torso bags fitted to the likes of the up and Clio. In cheap cars costs come into play and fitting expensive airbags would put customers off buying what would otherwise be a cheap car.

If you are happy to pay more for a safer car then no one stops you from doing that.

NCAP update there tests every so often which is why older 5 star cars will not score anything like 5 stars on the current test. New cars pretty much all score 5 stars so it makes a mockery of the ncap system anyway, you need to look at the percentage scores for the different cars to get a true indication of safety.


In respect of this the presents of curtain airbags doesn't make a huge deal of difference, note the ncap results for the 2011 panda versus the up

The up scores 89% for occupant safety and 80% for child occupant where as the panda scored 82% for occupant and only 63% for child occupant. The panda has curtains and the up! Doesn't. The panda scored a few points on running people over versus the up but did terribly for equipment which only scored it 4 stars, despite having curtain airbags, so bearing that in mind, which car is safer?

 

[Gavv8]

I've never looked at the NCAP rating of any car I've ever owned or driven, some might think that's not very responsible or grown up but I've seen very large and advanced cars reduced to a tin can and others that supposedly don't react too well to impacts save every occupant of the vehicle, road collisions are a mixture of a million different variables.

 

[andydiver]

Hi. Years ago had a glancing corner to corner head on with a Honda Legend. We were in an R reg Renault Laguna. Both doing about 40 (!) on a sweeping bend of the old A11 near Snetterton. It clarified in my mind that money must be spent on good strong passenger cell with complex crumple energy absorption with the hard bits kept out of the passenger cell. That work was done a few years ago and excellently so. The front wheel ended up under the foot well and that corner missing. The passenger cell was fine, the door would open with a decent push but was remodeled somewhat. Crash avoidance tech is great but the car has to have a surviving cell without impact areas inside. I now feel uncomfortable in any car large or small where the roof line sits close to my head. In order of preference: seat belts, seat belt pre tensioner, a high seat position away from the wheel, a good view of the road, good tyres and handling, effective crumple zones, strong cell. Then driver air bag and the rest. Our Qubo fits that. The new panda too. The 500 brings the roof a bit low. If we were serious we would also be in bucket seats with shoulder harness.

 

[Noxide]

I remember there was a gripe a few years ago about when SUV's hit the corner or something, so one half of the car carries on and the other stops, it absolutely destroyed them. I'd rather not think about, but if a car is safe, it'd be a plus.

Saw that Peugeot 206 reduced to half a meter if that, on Police Interceptors. Sometimes safety ratings just dont matter.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

It's a price I personally am happy to pay though,

And how many NEW cars have you purchased? an extra £800-£1k on a new car price is normally well in excess of 10% in the car markets you're looking at.

Most would not be happy with that. Key example is the mk3 Panda, all except the Active had options for curtain and thorax airbags, £400 each, so £800 in total all in.

Don't think I've seen a single used example with the option fitted.......

 

[puntofan01]

And how many NEW cars have you purchased? an extra £800-£1k on a new car price is normally well in excess of 10% in the car markets you're looking at.

Most would not be happy with that. Key example is the mk3 Panda, all except the Active had options for curtain and thorax airbags, £400 each, so £800 in total all in.

Don't think I've seen a single used example with the option fitted.......

If I were to buy a brand new car, I'd make sure it had them. Last year, when I was looking for a Grande, I ignored all the Active models for that very reason!

 

[StevenRB45]

And how many NEW cars have you purchased? an extra £800-£1k on a new car price is normally well in excess of 10% in the car markets you're looking at.

Most would not be happy with that. Key example is the mk3 Panda, all except the Active had options for curtain and thorax airbags, £400 each, so £800 in total all in.

Don't think I've seen a single used example with the option fitted.......

I think it depends on the market segment/target demographic, the panda is cheap no frills transport in the main so you would expect them to leave the factory in basic spec. Once you get further up the market the percentages get smaller, paying 800 quid on a 20 grand car is far less painful. Also you're more likely to be using that sort of car as family car. Once you get into lease car territory and an option at that level is say 5 quid a month. Doesn't necessarily mean people would take it up though, they might spend that fiver on bigger wheels or leather instead. I would be interested to see what the take up is compared to "vanity" options.

 

[AndyRKett]

If I were to buy a brand new car, I'd make sure it had them. Last year, when I was looking for a Grande, I ignored all the Active models for that very reason!

My grande active sport had curtain airbags.

My Golf cabriolet doesn't have them for obvious reasons however it's still a 5 star Ncap car, it scores every well in fact and it also scores very highlyon the American tests for things like roll over protection which ncap doesn't test for, curtain airbags are not the be all and end all.

I think it depends on the market segment/target demographic, the panda is cheap no frills transport in the main so you would expect them to leave the factory in basic spec. Once you get further up the market the percentages get smaller, paying 800 quid on a 20 grand car is far less painful. Also you're more likely to be using that sort of car as family car. Once you get into lease car territory and an option at that level is say 5 quid a month. Doesn't necessarily mean people would take it up though, they might spend that fiver on bigger wheels or leather instead. I would be interested to see what the take up is compared to "vanity" options.

Bigger family cars seem to inherently have them as standard. MEP is talking about the older panda (2003 - 2011) where as the new panda (2012 - ) has them as standard and still only gets 4 stars on ncap.

The implication is you're basically safer in an UP! Without curtain airbags than you are in panda which has curtains as standard.

The design of the tin can has as much bearing on your safety as the cushioning inside it and if there are floors in the design of the car then no amount of cushioning is going to help.

 

[StevenRB45]

My grande active sport had curtain airbags.

My Golf cabriolet doesn't have them for obvious reasons however it's still a 5 star Ncap car, it scores every well in fact and it also scores very highlyon the American tests for things like roll over protection which ncap doesn't test for, curtain airbags are not the be all and end all.




Bigger family cars seem to inherently have them as standard. MEP is talking about the older panda (2003 - 2011) where as the new panda (2012 - ) has them as standard and still only gets 4 stars on ncap.

The implication is you're basically safer in an UP! Without curtain airbags than you are in panda which has curtains as standard.

The design of the tin can has as much bearing on your safety as the cushioning inside it and if there are floors in the design of the car then no amount of cushioning is going to help.

I agree strength and design is more important than number of airbags. Remember the crash test of the Daewoo Nexia...airbags did nothing to hide the fact it had the rigidity of a tin shed.

Don't assume you get all the safety as standard our favourite talking point charges for rear curtains on cars up to and over 30k..

 

[AndyRKett]

Don't assume you get all the safety as standard our favourite talking point charges for rear curtains on cars up to and over 30k..

?

 

[puntofan01]

My grande active sport had curtain airbags.

My Golf cabriolet doesn't have them for obvious reasons however it's still a 5 star Ncap car, it scores every well in fact and it also scores very highlyon the American tests for things like roll over protection which ncap doesn't test for, curtain airbags are not the be all and end all.

Your Grande wasn't the very base model though. I'm referring to the Actives with wheeltrims and no colour coded mirrors or door handles. I saw a few of those advertised, and possibly with lower miles too, but I ignored those in favour of Dynamic models and the Eleganza I bought, because they had the side and curtain bags.

Oh, I know that, I was merely surprised that such mainstream (and not exactly cheap either!) cars weren't fitted with them, that was all.

Bigger family cars seem to inherently have them as standard. MEP is talking about the older panda (2003 - 2011) where as the new panda (2012 - ) has them as standard and still only gets 4 stars on ncap.

The implication is you're basically safer in an UP! Without curtain airbags than you are in panda which has curtains as standard.

The design of the tin can has as much bearing on your safety as the cushioning inside it and if there are floors in the design of the car then no amount of cushioning is going to help.

I would still feel safe in a Panda, from what I understand, most of the difference in the ratings is because the Panda has less driver aids as standard.

For an example of the importance of body structure design, look no further than the Rover Metro or previous shape Chrysler Voyager! Truly terrifying safety cell collapse!

 

[puntofan01]

I agree strength and design is more important than number of airbags. Remember the crash test of the Daewoo Nexia...airbags did nothing to hide the fact it had the rigidity of a tin shed.

What crash test was that, out of interest?

 

[StevenRB45]

What crash test was that, out of interest?

[ame]https://youtu.be/SV5gBlFEYds[/ame]

80s Astra design + airbags = still carnage

Afraid it's in Russian but the results are clear enough

 

[StevenRB45]

?

Golf SV , Touran, Golf, polo, Skoda Octavia...doesn't matter what trim level you go for you don't get rear curtains as standard.

 

[puntofan01]

https://youtu.be/SV5gBlFEYds

80s Astra design + airbags = still carnage

Afraid it's in Russian but the results are clear enough

That's absolutely shocking. There's a couple of old late 90s Top Gear clips on YouTube about Euro NCAP, and I think the only car that performed in a comparable manner was the aforementioned Metro!

 

[AndyRKett]

Your Grande wasn't the very base model though. I'm referring to the Actives with wheeltrims and no colour coded mirrors or door handles. I saw a few of those advertised, and possibly with lower miles too, but I ignored those in favour of Dynamic models and the Eleganza I bought, because they had the side and curtain bags.

Had a quick read and it was only the cheap actives that didn't have curtains but then they didn't have side impact airbags either, they just had a driver and passenger bag.

Oh, I know that, I was merely surprised that such mainstream (and not exactly cheap either!) cars weren't fitted with them, that was all.

The UP! The mii and the citigo all rank in the cheapest uk cars as does the twingo so they are very cheap. And for the 5th time curtain airbags do not automatically mean a safer car, which bring us neatly to your next point

I would still feel safe in a Panda, from what I understand, most of the difference in the ratings is because the Panda has less driver aids as standard.

As I've already posted the UP!/mii/citigo all score much better than the panda for adult occupant (7% safer in the the Vag car) and child occupant safety (17% safer in the vag car) so ignoring your brand loyalty, it's an average 12% safer to crash an UP! Than a panda, which is quite. A bit!

It is 3% worse to be run over by the vag car but if you're the driver you're probably more concerned about your own safety than the idiot who wonders into the road in front of you.

Equipment wise the panda does terribly it got half the marks of the UP! But actual safety wises as an occupant of either vehicle the UP!/mii/citigo is quite a bit safer by NCAP standards.


Not sure why you keep mentioning the metro a car that's not been built for about 18 years, things have come a hell of a long way since then, it's not even remotely compatible to any modern uk car.

In a 50mph crash I'd rather be in a rally car than the best ncap scoring car and the rally car won't have any airbags.

Airbags are not the be all and end all when it comes to safety. The idea of not buying a car just because it doesn't have an airbag that covers the back windows in an accident is just silly. My golf has huge rams that burst out of the parcel shelf in the event of a roll over with the roof down but that doesn't mean that all the cars that don't have this technology are any less safe.

 

[StevenRB45]

That's absolutely shocking. There's a couple of old late 90s Top Gear clips on YouTube about Euro NCAP, and I think the only car that performed in a comparable manner was the aforementioned Metro!

In the UK I seem to recall it was one of the first cheap cars to get an airbag and ABS (which would make you think it was safe). When the basic shell is that unsound an airbag will not save you.

 

[AndyRKett]

When the basic shell is that unsound an airbag will not save you.

Chinese cars are the master of this, full of airbags but the likes of the 'cherry amulet' and the 'BS6' basically fall apart on testing and the latter scored nothing on euroncap

 

[andydiver]

And how many NEW cars have you purchased? an extra £800-£1k on a new car price is normally well in excess of 10% in the car markets you're looking at.

Better to save that money and replace your tyres with good ones at more than 3mm wear when needed and keep in good order

Saw that Peugeot 206 reduced to half a meter if that, on Police Interceptors. Sometimes safety ratings just dont matter.

That must be where Euro N cap has done the most good. My only other crash was in a D reg Mitsubishi Galant. A large articulated tanker lorry hit the back changing lanes on the M6. The car span to be hit again side on by the lorry. He then did well to keep in a straight line while we lost speed from 60 to stop. The lorry was modern with good active brake balance and the car was essentially just dented. The traffic officer said the cars usually crush too much so they lodge under the lorry. Very lucky. Not many Mitsubishi specialists about so a Peugeot body shop dealt with it. He was white when he saw it, no chassis bend at all and a hugely strong B pillar. He openly admitted the cars he normally saw and had to sell would have been crushed. Euro N cap was not around then in a meaningful way. Modern steels and design are critical just hope that the obsession with light weighting does not roll us backwards with cell strength.