Off Topic I've decided I'm coming back (next year)

[SB1500]

It's taken a lot of my mind space - coming back to Fiat, and in particular, the Panda. This is the only post I'll make until I post to announce having bought a new one. But I've got the plan now. After taking care of a few credit accounts by new year, then stashing away a few big chunks in the run up to next summer, that'll be my target date. So just under a year.

On the high end, I might be able to justify myself buying a brand new Garmin model (if they're still out) in order to get two things I've lusted over since I got into cars: heated seats and CarPlay. In true Fiat fashion, they've reserved the winter pack for only this one model for reasons which I cannot understand..

On the lower end, it will be a 2021 / 2 / 3 model, if it lacks the CarPlay / touch screen but has the phone holder that always served me well in my last Panda and will never be obsolete, I've found that to be superior to anything but CarPlay (having had that in my DS3). The Toyota system is terrible, I've never held my phone in my hand trying to get it to work in my life whilst in the car... dangerous. I'd be going without the heated seats on all of the new Hybrid / post-Pop/Easy/Lounge models, new car (or considerably older is the only choice).

Some questions I do have:
- Worth sticking with / opting for a 1.2L Fire or going for the new Firefly / Hybrid engine - are those the same or separate?
- Lounge or Top model, any key differences here between the non-special top end models?

I think my big mistake was getting rid of my 2017 Panda back during the pandemic and worrying too much about what other people think. My Avensis is a great car and hasn't led to any issues, and if you go back on my posts here over the years, I was die-hard Fiat but had soft spot for Toyota / Japanese cars. For the life of me, I just can't seem to enjoy living with it. Although superior feature wise and the cheapest option now that I have it, this is the least content I've felt with any car - and the least issues I've ever had with a car. Even with the DS3 I enjoyed it up until having a loaded Mercedes for two months.. I really should have went for a Lounge model back in 2019, and now I will make sure to go for one of the higher if not highest specs, they have the basics. I think I'm just a Fiat person like many of you! There is something humbling and down to earth about the Panda, I think it's much more my ethos on things. As nice as the luxuries can be in life, they're just a never ending ladder of wanting more, more, more. It's a ladder I don't want to be on.

 

[Marcus Daly]

As nice as the luxuries can be in life, they're just a never ending ladder of wanting more, more, more. It's a ladder I don't want to be on.

Here is wisdom.

 

[Leroypanda]

Doubt youll get the 1.2 at the age of panda you want, so itll be firefly for you.
Have you considered a 500 instead, more options.

 

[Steven]

I understand where you’re coming from. I switched my 2015 Panda for a Ford C Max. It’s a nice car with lots of toys, climate control, cruise control, automatic parking, heated windscreen but I have never been able to settle with it. I’m looking for another Panda now.

 

[AB100]

IAs nice as the luxuries can be in life, they're just a never ending ladder of wanting more, more, more. It's a ladder I don't want to be on.

Personally I'd be going 1.2 though many like the Twinair. As you know, our 9000 mile 2017 Lounge has all options, though:

Heated screen - good, unless the inside is also frozen, in which case you need the blower to dry it anyway
Heated seats - ok, if you can wait for ages. Used twice probably.
Stereo thing - use your phone or just focus on driving, not listening
City brake - off
Climate - probably the only thing I think is worth having (though I'd curse it if it went wrong)

City Cross/Trussardi..........maybe, or a FIAT 500 Riva.....

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[varesecrazy]

500.. not with my experience

Panda.. when did the1.2 finish?

Might be hunting out a less than 3 years..under 20k example.. as youll have bypassed most depreciation then.

 

[AB100]

500.. not with my experience

Panda.. when did the1.2 finish?

Might be hunting out a less than 3 years..under 20k example.. as youll have bypassed most depreciation then.

Depreciation? Panda?

Oh come now.....

 

[Twotone2]

Stoneacre in Liverpool has or had a Panda Garmin last week for £15,000 I nearly bought it but was put off by the guy on the phone when I phoned up about it he was actually really rude and didn’t want to deal with him. I ended up with a Wild 4 x 4 TA pre-reg from their Worksop dealership for £15995.

They‘ve three actually plus a trussardi too.

This vehicle is now sold

This vehicle is now sold

www.stoneacre.co.uk

 

[StanZlatan]

I like my panda. It model 2009. But produced 2015.
Anyway from my life experience to each their own. I like it for very practical reasons. And for these reasons i also like my Ford Transit 2012. Also the Peugeot 102.
But the Panda is very well thought out car and you can fit a lot of things and the family of 4 inside. And its cheap to maintain park and repair...as for the oppinion of others..who are they to lead us? Only God is the leader in essence and he wont care what car we drive i can imagine.

 

[SB1500]

I was out looking at cars today and last time I was at the Toyota dealer for final warranty work I test drove a Lexus CT. Stepped into a Lexus dealership today for the first time and the service and everything blew me away. It's a bit like Mercedes except they seem to recognise you as a person!

I figured out what I don't like about the Toyota and why, more than ever, I'm re-thinking or wanting to get rid of it. On paper, it's superior to my other cars. Higher spec. Larger. Better comfort / insulation. All sorts of high tech amenities. Even I couldn't quite put my finger on it... I try to write off the Panda notions as simple nostalgia and the upgrading to a Lexus or Mercedes as stupid material vanity that never ends and just grows a monthly payment.

It's the gearing / gearbox. Large car. Tiny 1.6 diesel engine, pulled from another manufacturer and modified as a 3 year temporary solution... on models they knew they were discontinuing. However... they've had to pull some magic tricks at Toyota to make it work. Mainly the gearing. Sure enough, it's got enough torque to go - after a bit of lag. As you cycle up through the gears too, it's fine in itself.

0-10 (1st),
up to 20 (2nd),
up to 31 (3rd),
up to 45 (5th)
over 65 (6th)

That's how it works and that's fine. The turbo is drawn on heavily from the get go. Every little micro movement of the foot is enough to control the whine powering up the turbo, but also it turning off as you ease it. It's very - VERY - sensitive. More so than the DS3.

The problem is on a real road situation you have people speeding up and slowing down - never on the limit really. That's when the gearbox doesn't work. The range of speeding up / slowing down to deal with people seems to always upset the gearbox, and when not used near enough sequentially, it leads to a lot of shuddering or moving down a gear which jolts the car... there seems to be a lot of black spots or non-ideal spots, that you find yourself in to keep up or a safe distance from traffic. OR, you over take, which in itself is painful as you must change down in the best of cases, a big jolt, then over revving, and to the next gear... dead spot... turbo kicks in, you somewhat begin to make your move after you're in the other lane. Problem is , every typical other car behind you is up your *** also trying to over take and while I am trying to get the gears right - either waiting for the car, or pushing it way beyond what it wants to do...

This turns most extended trips into a nightmare. Despite the comfort and relatively good (to me) insulation, it's hard to get peace as the gearbox - I think by design, not by damage - is perhaps designed with a very difficult brief of working at all in the car that when you need it to work, it falls short very fast. And it's a drawback.

I know you might say it could be a lack of skill on my part - and although I don't think so - you might be right.

I've been thinking back and the Panda's were both slow. The newer one was noticeably slower than the 2005 one. My Avensis is slow, but that's never been a problem. It's that when I accept that, and don't overtake, even doing my best and being patient, the car isn't happy. The Panda was never like that. The gear box and range seemed to fit the cars weight / size / speed just fine. And the ranges enough that you could happily get that 'easing off' and then 'building up' with minimal changing up and down in most real world situations.

Anyway, already-long story short, driving has become frustrating. This car seems to be a bit more stressful to drive and now that I've stopped blaming other drivers on the road (which lets face it, have hardly changed at all in my time driving), I've adjusted my attitude - binge watched a lot of Ashley Neal YouTube videos and recognised a lot of errors and bad habits I have on the road and I've managed to work out that it's the messing around with the gear stick that's got me pretty irritated on what should be nice, longer cross country car journeys.

Back to this thread... I've looked at the Lexus CT and it's the car I should go for. But before I do that I always contemplate the Panda.

https://www.motorpoint.co.uk/vehicle-details/fiat-panda/1362110?icid=search-result&_its=JTdCJTIydmlkJTIyJTNBJTIyZjljOGY1ZTgtYjNlYS00YThhLWIyMjEtNTFjY2Q5OGJkNDE0JTIyJTJDJTIyc3RhdGUlMjIlM0ElMjJybHR%2BMTY5NTQxNjc0N35sYW5kfjJfMTQwOTNfc2VvX2ZhMzE0MjA0ZmViOTNkMDNjOTM1YzhmNGY3ZDRhMzdkJTIyJTJDJTIyc2l0ZUlkJTIyJTNBMTA0JTdE

Motorpoint still has City Cross models, which are actually Cross models.

I could buy something like that. Or configure a brand new Panda... I know they haven't upped the offering or come out with any half decent finance incentives. But this might be the last chance to get a 2023 Fiat Panda, made by the Italian company Fiat, and not the French name licensing company Stellantis. And that 2023 Panda could do me for 10-15 years well into the 2038 year of... affordable, long range, 20 year lasting EVs...

Everybody buys a new car once, right? Even if just so they can advise everybody they know never to bother buying a new car.

My big issue is the 1.5-2k drop of lost equity on my car regardless of what I buy next. Selling private might be the only choice. I'll float it on AutoTrader and even if it takes weeks, or months. I know I can go out then and buy something new or used. Around 17k maximum - decent used car or new Fiat Panda Top. The time it might take to sell mine, I can sleep on it and potentially not do this if for some reason I talk myself out of it. God knows everybody around me would be mortified if I bought another Fiat, but as you lot understand, they get under your skin and even a 0-star NCAP rating or kitted out Lexus seems to be able to knock it off. If I can avoid a loss on my car. Excellent.

So far, similar cars like mine on AutoTrader are around 9.5k - 10.5k UK wide. Toyota dealers in NI (where we pay more than mainland) are selling 'approved used' ones with slightly less miles for 11.5k or 12k! Albeit, with a warranty and proper workshops to fix issues right. So I should be able to still interest private buyers with something well below 10k that would get it paid off... just not overnight.

Rates are lower on new cars 7.9% versus 11.9% it seems for approved used cars here. My 2019 Panda purchase was 9.9% ... and that was my first debt ever. 6.6% on the DS3 during lockdown 2020 .. "those were the days".. Motorpoint also at 11.9%.

I looked today into one of the only two Pandas sold at the only dealership in NI. Basic Pop. Still sitting at 8k a few months on. Easy model, 2019. quite tidy. £9k though. No steering wheel controls, which I think is a need. Ideally a Lounge (or Cross or new Top model). Should take care of all the essentials. Are they putting auto lights and wipers on them now? Swear I saw 'dusk sensor' on the configurator..

The interiors are so refreshing looking. Neat. Little bit of design / style. But a very rugged plastic that I remember never losing sleep over when I cleaned them out of fear of scratching or scuffing them. That came right back to me as I peered into this one for sale. Basic radio with the calculator screen. For a second I thought, even the old Toyota touch interface is something modern with its maps and live traffic. Then I spotted the little phone holder integrated thing. How great that was. Even when I watch car reviews of new Lexus / fancy car models, they always compare it to MBUX or BMW iDrive - nothing else seems to be as good. But that involves buying a Mercedes or BMW ..... I remember that actually... the best sat nav in the world is on your phone - Google Maps. The best 'music player' is also your phone - any radio stream in the world, not just limited to 'DAB' (which is crap here)... any song in the world through Siri voice free / Apple Music. Really, my phone is the best solution. The Toyota screen is now dated. Obsolete. This year they cut off a load of the subscription options to £110 a year for fuel prices and maps with traffic... Next year they might stop supporting it altogether. It's slow. It's unintuitive. It never plays music, it's shocking how much I've been tempted to pick up my phone whilst driving to sort the bloody music out. It can't fathom going between music and podcasts. In short, the Toyota system - and I bet most others that aren't the latest German cars - aren't actually that worthy of missing. The Panda radio doesn't do much, but it works. And that little integrated phone holder - that's the best sat nav off all. Ingenious.

Really, it's the Panda's 'shortcomings' that give it the charm isn't it? No soft touch / shine finishes to ruin while cleaning. No frustrating touch screen interface. No alloy wheels to kerb... just cheap trims to replace every so often. And another thing.... if and when the windscreen breaks... no being screwed about by AutoGlass and sensors / radars that they can screw the alignment up of. for every feature I'm losing, I'm gaining a few more minutes of sleep every night.

I will update this thread with developments. If I buy a Panda again... I'll post a new thread. watch this space

 

[Bonefish Blues]

The CT really is one of the worst cars I've ever driven - bettered by the Prius in every respect.

 

[Marcus Daly]

I disagree, I've had a Prius of every generation and a CT and absolutely loved the CT.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I disagree, I've had a Prius of every generation and a CT and absolutely loved the CT.

It was marketed as a luxury sporty car, remember

 

[The Panda Nut]

I agree with AB 100 1.2 all the way. I have tried the hybrid and Im sorry I don't like it. Its OK but a total nonsense as its no more economical and far more complex. It does nor drive better in any way. Its OK but if you are going second hand I would go out of my way to avoid it. I found you can feel the hybrid and it doesnt bring anything nice to the party. 1.2 is just better. SImple and longlasting if cared for. Currently depreciation on the Pandas still seems to be 0. Good ones are going to be desirable. 4x4 rides much better than the 2WD. May be the City cross has anadvantage here too.

 

[SB1500]

The CT200h is definitely the one people I know think I should go to. And in fairness, it improves on the Avensis shortcomings of being not very refined (for its class) and adds a few nice things like keyless entry, heated seats (from factory) and automatic. But...

The Panda makes me more excited. Is that odd? I have one friend offering to check me in at the local mental health facility :') - god I miss those responses to my last Panda ownership!

It's the honesty of it, the unassumingness. It's basic, but it's proudly basic. The DS3 was high spec, but it's like one of those old-time maturing ladies who'd sit at the bar with every piece of horrible jewellery, clothes and stench of perfume - not very authentic and nearly ashamed of its roots at a Citroen C3 (which itself I admire for its originality if nothing else). The Avensis is a bit like a well known public figure (celebrity, politician? Either way everybody knows it). It started off doing well in the 90s, 2000s... 2010s... then it started getting a bit out of touch with its peers, then its investors / supporters disappeared. And by the end up, after a number of failed half-effort publicity campaigns, even a new face and some soft touch trim couldn't really help it compete then boom, axed. Nobody cared or rated it much anymore.

But the Panda, it's been pretty much the same since the 80s in where it's positioned in peoples hierarchy of cars, the image it portrays and the experience of owners. I'll still see everything from an '03-11 Panda driven by learners, young women, old men, mothers, full families - and the same even goes for 500's - even ones in colours and combinations I'd assume very girly, I'll see the odd man driving. Same with Abarths. Today I passed one, the very expensive Audi behind me flashed him as he went past - looked like they knew each other and the Abarth guy was a respected part of the group of 'performance cars'. The Panda is everyone's car.

I'm thinking of buying a new one on PCP. Giving me a decent 'way out' should I enjoy the five years, but not want to stick with it. I mean by then maybe they'll have a new Panda, maybe one that isn't a 208. If not, I can simply go out and get a decent, next to zero % loan and pay off the rest, or just pay it out of savings. I've stuck to HP with my cars so far but given how soon I've parted ways, PCP might be a better option.

I've been putting Toyota fluids into my Avensis. It's not actually that expensive at the dealership to buy genuine parts and fluids / filters. I have a funny feeling that Fiat won't be the same. However, my Avensis has a special oil and a stupid BMW engine where the additives might actually be life/ death. I know from experience that my 05 Panda had probably the lowest most questionable grades of oil for 10 years, and still was bone dry for a long time. Anybody here know how much an oil change at the dealer is - OR - the oil / filter for DIY jobs? I'd like to do it if I bought one new.

Also, my local dealer for Fiat (now closed) when I took my first Panda there for a 'major service' told me they just used a drum of Castrol.. and motor factor parts for fluids. Not the stuff on the car bonnet sticker... Toyota assured me (and showed me the bottles) that everything they do is Toyota fluids / parts - even the smallest of gasket sealers / tubes of stuff are ordered from Toyota itself. Do Fiat even have an own-name oil? I asked the salesman at Fiat / Abarth yesterday, he was a bit puzzled, he said they did but he might not know..

 

[SB1500]

Oh; by the way, having just put the heated seats into my Avensis - I’m happy now to put them into any Panda I buy. That was a big issue for me before when considering new. As they were only on the Garmin. But as AB100 said, perhaps they’re not great from factory.

I see they’ve stopped the Garmin and Red models. Is this normal with special editions or a new quarter … or is this a sign the model is drying up forever?

 

[Marcus Daly]

Do Fiat even have an own-name oil? I asked the salesman at Fiat / Abarth yesterday, he was a bit puzzled, he said they did but he might not know..

The Twinair must have the correct Selenia brand oil. If your Fiat dealer doesn't know this, don't buy one they claim to have serviced.

Other-engined Pandas are more forgiving.

 

[SB1500]

The Twinair must have the correct Selenia brand oil. If your Fiat dealer doesn't know this, don't buy one they claim to have serviced.

Other-engined Pandas are more forgiving.

Thanks! I'm a believer that the brand actually does matter - and the grade is only half the story. I think engines as the TwinAir (and the BMW diesel in my Toyota) there are certainly components and parts that wear in a particular way that suffer from a lack of the correct specific additives. Check this out from my car owners manual...

For petrol: 'or equivalent'...
For diesel: contact a dealer before using any other, 'approved' engine oil. Not just 'equivalent' ... fishy.

 

[Marcus Daly]

I was an early adopter of the Prius as a company car and remember how hard I had to battle the fleet dept for the right oil every time it was serviced.

Very wearying.

 

[SB1500]

I was an early adopter of the Prius as a company car and remember how hard I had to battle the fleet dept for the right oil every time it was serviced.

Very wearying.

Every part I've bought from Toyota, even that very specific oil made just for that engine, and things like trim pieces I scratched or accessories, are very, very reasonable. They have an official store on eBay / Amazon and our local dealer is legitimately a few £ cheaper - without delivery too. They tend to stock everything routine for service. I've enjoyed that part of Toyota, they have their stuff together.

With Fiat, I'll see.. if prices are the same I'll be happy to pay them. I just hope they don't take the **** with it.