General Is the Panda reliable

[koalar]

I only bring up the Sump because it genuinely was a problem area for fiat and did have a large number of in warranty claims I will refer you to this video for a reference




I am going to add an ammendment to this. The more complex the vehicle, the more potential there is for things to go wrong, but that doesn't mean it will.

Modern cars are infinitely more complicated than cars from the past but arguable are also infinitely better made and more reliable.

If Fiat build a car and they have 10 reliable electronics modules in the car, then having 20 reliable electronic models in a higher spec model doesn't mean there is double the likelihood of one of them breaking down. If something is made well. Then it will last well.

If fiat cut costs, trim the fat and generally penny pinch on every car then the likelihood of break down is much higher than something that is made without cutting corners. So you could argue a cheap car is more likely to break down, and this has been shown in cars in the last 10-20 years where multiple manufacturers will use the same engine, but notably the cheaper cars tend to break down more.

Not the way I see it

Car have become more reliable yes

But the more complex they are the more chance they have of failing

Dualogic
Aircon
Climate control
4x4
VVT
All have extra wear and failure points

As for the panda sumps I can't find a single one replaced within warrenty on any forum

Some cruddy ones at 5 years and a few fails at 10 years, But if you follow the routine maintance and address it as needed it should out last the rest of the car

Annual

Visually inspect condition of: engine, gearbox, transmission, pipes

 

[AndyRKett]

Some cruddy ones at 5 years and a few fails at 10 years, But if you follow the routine maintance and address it as needed it should out last the rest of the car

I’m not going to get into a tit for tat argument in this one, it was an example of something that can happen and an ex-fiat tech in a video stating it was something they had to deal with… I’m not sure why you need any more than that (feel free to post on his video and tell him he’s a liar) regardless of the specific part it was only an example of what would go on behind the scenes. If you had a part replaced under warranty then it goes in the bin at the dealership.

If it was a whole engine or a gearbox, something very expensive, they may want it back to see why it failed, but only if it was something new they’d not seen before. But if Lucas made a brake cylinder and it failed then fiat will not be making a claim back from Lucas. as long as Lucas have made the parts to spec then fiat don’t stand a lot of chance of getting any money back.

If you asked me to build a bridge to your designs that you intend to drive a car over, I build you that bridge and when you drive your car over it the bridge collapses, if I built it to your plans then it’s your fault it failed not mine. It’s a similar issue in manufacturing, if the parts are made to spec then it’s fiats fault not the manufacturer of the part. Fiat will have strict QC procedures in place to make sure the quality is maintained though out production.

When you make literally millions of cars, things brake, failures are all factored into the price, fiat don’t lose out if you make a warranty claim you likely paid for an expected albeit distributed amount of failure in the purchase price.

If I make a spoon from a solid piece of metal then there is only one thing that can fail so you could say that there is only one point of potential failure, but if I make a second spoon with a separate plastic handle that clips into place you could say that there is more to go wrong, but if both the handle and the spoon are designed to the same specifications ie resist the same stresses in use then there is no reason to assume one spoon would be any worse than the other

It’s no different when you scale things up to something as complicated as a car, you build something that is to spec then it should last, with computer modelling they can predict failures quite accurately.
Cars are tested many millions of times over these days before they even leave the drawing board

 

[koalar]

I’m not going to get into a tit for tat argument in this one, it was an example of something that can happen and an ex-fiat tech in a video stating it was something they had to deal with… I’m not sure why you need any more than that (feel free to post on his video and tell him he’s a liar)

Why would I call him a liar

He talking about early punto sumps and Seicento fuel tanks,

And he says the majority were out of warranty

But we are talking about the reliability of the 169 panda here,

Take a look at the fiestas oil sumps early 2000s for sump problems and you want to move the goal post

 

[AndyRKett]

move on from sumps, It was an example of something fiat has had trouble with and continued to have trouble with for a long time, but it’s now being taken out of context.

Take it in the example in which it was meant.

 

[jrkitching]

But we are talking about the reliability of the 169 panda here

Yes, please everyone keep this on topic.

Bearing in mind any 169 is now going to be at least 11 yrs old, I'd describe them as decently reliable. As with many older cars, they've reached that part of their lifecycle where repairs will form a significant part of the overall ownership cost, so the amount of work you can do for yourself will have a significant impact on the economics of ownership.

Most commonly needed mechanical parts are cheap enough; the biggest risk is probably the electronics; by now, individual components like capacitors may be reaching end of life. Again, no difference here from any other modern car.

One thing not often mentioned is airbag life; there'll be a sticker in the glovebox with a 'use by' date. Replacing the time-limited components will likely cost more than the value of the car. As yet, there are no legal restrictions on continuing to use the car beyond that date, but it's perhaps something to think about. Personally speaking, I wouldn't feel comfortable using a vehicle with life expired airbags on busy urban roads as a daily driver.

The recent fundamental changes in the car market mean a lot of older cars will be kept in service well beyond the point where they might previously have been scrapped. Not so long ago, a £1500 repair bill at MOT time would have seen most folks scrapping a Panda; right now, it makes sense to repair it if it's otherwise sound.

As we move closer to the point where the entire fleet is more than 15 years old, I'd expect we'll see more than a few twist beam replacements; the investment IM axles have made in tooling up for their aftermarket products is looking like it'll be a winner for them - and it's going to keep a lot of Pandas on the road which otherwise might have been scrapped.

The 1.1/1.2 cars are still worth buying, even at today's inflated prices. But given the number of big (and some not-so-big) cities that have either implemented, or are thinking of implementing, low emissions zones, I'd say the long term future for 1.3 variants isn't looking so bright.

Most of the 100HP's have by now been driven too hard for too long with too little maintenance by too many owners to make them a good prospect for someone looking for a cheap daily driver. The few remaining really good ones are perhaps now better kept that way, and treated more like a classic car.

 

[koalar]

Interior seems to hold up better than expted seeing it's feels cheap to start with

All the switch gear on the three pandas I have owned never failed

The foam in the seats has failed as does the cloth,

Internal body rot I see as the main death nail as long as they are serviced

 

[StevenRB45]

One thing not often mentioned is airbag life; there'll be a sticker in the glovebox with a 'use by' date. Replacing the time-limited components will likely cost more than the value of the car. As yet, there are no legal restrictions on continuing to use the car beyond that date, but it's perhaps something to think about. Personally speaking, I wouldn't feel comfortable using a vehicle with life expired airbags on busy urban roads as a daily driver.

I think this has later been debunked as a requirement.

I had one of the first airbag cars Fiat made, mk1 Punto and it had said sticker.

But if memory serves it was there because no one knew how airbags stood the test of time so it was a bit of bottom covering.

Later cars don't have these as it's expected airbags will last the life of the car however long that is.

 

[AndyRKett]

The foam in the seats has failed as does the cloth,

I think this is common in a lot of fiats especially as they get older. in the early 2000s materials were very cheap and nasty, they did try and improve them, make them feel a bit better but they were still made to a price point.

Most commonly needed mechanical parts are cheap enough; the biggest risk is probably the electronics; by now, individual components like capacitors may be reaching end of life. Again, no difference here from any other modern car.

definitely an issue with the blue and me module however many of the panda electronics are the same kit that they fitted to the much earlier models and they have held up pretty well. Very simple electronics and build very robustly. So while the B&M units fail all the time, the rest of the car seems unaffected by similarly regular electronics issues.

The recent fundamental changes in the car market mean a lot of older cars will be kept in service well beyond the point where they might previously have been scrapped. Not so long ago, a £1500 repair bill at MOT time would have seen most folks scrapping a Panda; right now, it makes sense to repair it if it's otherwise sound.

As we move closer to the point where the entire fleet is more than 15 years old, I'd expect we'll see more than a few twist beam replacements; the investment IM axles have made in tooling up for their aftermarket products is looking like it'll be a winner for them - and it's going to keep a lot of Pandas on the road which otherwise might have been scrapped.

right now the price of small petrol cars is sky high because of ULEZ being introduced to multiple places, and further threats to impose parking and access restrictions in many other towns and cites. That said London has shown this is not a popular move and places may back down or scale back there plans. I suspect in the next 2-3 years panda prices will have collapsed once the demand drops off and everyone who needs a small petrol then has one.
baring this in mind any manufacturer is not only going to look at the UK but Europe as a whole, if the demand isn't there across the board then producing after market parts might not be worth while.
..... maybe I should look into how much it would cost to get some rear beams made up in china. lol

 

[koalar]

I think this has later been debunked as a requirement.

I had one of the first airbag cars Fiat made, mk1 Punto and it had said sticker.

But if memory serves it was there because no one knew how airbags stood the test of time so it was a bit of bottom covering.

Later cars don't have these as it's expected airbags will last the life of the car however long that is.

That's my undetstanding to

Later cars have no lable

 

[jrkitching]

I think this has later been debunked as a requirement.

I had one of the first airbag cars Fiat made, mk1 Punto and it had said sticker.

But if memory serves it was there because no one knew how airbags stood the test of time so it was a bit of bottom covering.

Later cars don't have these as it's expected airbags will last the life of the car however long that is.

I'd say you're quite likely right, though some say this only applies to newer cars with more sophisticated self diagnostic systems. There's so much information out there that you can find dozens of articles supporting whatever point of view you take on this.

In any case, if you are concerned about secondary crash protection, there are probably more important things to worry about than the airbags. From time to time, studies have been done where older cars are crash tested, and in many cases, they've been shown to be seriously weakened by corrosion and poor quality repairs.

What may put an older car off the road is if the car's self diagnostic system triggers an airbag warning light; another example of repairs being uneconomic due to electronic component failure, rather than structural corrosion.

An electronic failure which costs ££££'s to fix can scrap a car today just as easily as bodyshell rust would have scrapped one a few decades ago.

 

[StevenRB45]

What may put an older car off the road is if the car's self diagnostic system triggers an airbag warning light; another example of repairs being uneconomic due to electronic component failure, rather than structural corrosion.

A lot of this depends on your personal standards.

Not that I would but an Airbag light is only a fail..if it's got a bulb in it. They check to see if it's illuminated not that it illuminates and goes off...or read any faults.

I wouldn't do this..but it's entirely possible and people absolutely do so worth checking if you're buying an older car.

Same applies for ABS lights... although splicing them into a different system so they still come on but don't remain illuminated is more the thing as they actually get checked that they come on.

 

[irc]

An electronic failure which costs ££££'s to fix can scrap a car today just as easily as bodyshell rust would have scrapped one a few decades ago.

I'm OK with scrapping cars which have serious rust, terminal mechanical problems, or major accident damage.

What annoys me is when a perfectly working car in good overall condition has a minor fault, which is then misdiagnosed (usually by an eejit with a cheap code reader and limited knowledge) as "an ECU failure", scrappie is called, and its game over. Next stop is crusher. (Or Fire Service practice, followed by crusher). Surprisingly few cars actually get broken for parts now, and of those, surprisingly few parts are removed for re-use.

I suppose, on the other hand, it has got me a few cheap Pandas (and others) over the years. Only had one so far that wasn't easily fixed, and that was a Vauxhall with water damage.

I could probably have got rich from the number of French cars that I got offered over the same period. Trouble is, I just don't like them enough.

 

[AndyRKett]

I'd say you're quite likely right, though some say this only applies to newer cars with more sophisticated self diagnostic systems. There's so much information out there that you can find dozens of articles supporting whatever point of view you take on this.

In any case, if you are concerned about secondary crash protection, there are probably more important things to worry about than the airbags. From time to time, studies have been done where older cars are crash tested, and in many cases, they've been shown to be seriously weakened by corrosion and poor quality repairs.

What may put an older car off the road is if the car's self diagnostic system triggers an airbag warning light; another example of repairs being uneconomic due to electronic component failure, rather than structural corrosion.

An electronic failure which costs ££££'s to fix can scrap a car today just as easily as bodyshell rust would have scrapped one a few decades ago.

from an electronics perspective, the actual internal workings of the airbag is a heating element and then that is surrounded by sodium azide which when heated produces massive amounts of nitrogen gas. The self test of even the most sophisticated airbag system can really only check the continuity of that heating element, it cannot detect if the chemicals have broken down which would be the main concern with time.

Also the chemicals are sealed in so they are not able to react with the surrounding air anyways, and so theoretically modern airbag or the most fancy new design, the bit that goes bag is largely the same and unlikely to deteriorate with time.

Obviously the more early airbags in the UK would be >30 years now and if they had deteriorated the potential issue would be producing slightly less gas or not functioning at all, they would not be dangerous to the driver and if they did deploy would likely be adequate to give some protection.

Generally speaking the airbag warning light would only come on if there was a fault with that tiny heating element. other than that an airbag is as basic as it gets and there is virtually nothing that can go wrong with them.
More often its the airbag module, or wiring (clock spring) that fails and not the airbag.

Not that I would but an Airbag light is only a fail..if it's got a bulb in it. They check to see if it's illuminated not that it illuminates and goes off...or read any faults.

ABS light, oil pressure light or Airbag light can all be easily bypassed by joining them to the battery light. When the car is started, they all go off as you'd expect...... don't ask me how I know.

 

[StevenRB45]

ABS light, oil pressure light or Airbag light can all be easily bypassed by joining them to the battery light. When the car is started, they all go off as you'd expect...... don't ask me how I know.

Indeed..

Very much a case of where there's a will....

 

[jrkitching]

Very much a case of where there's a will

If you're planning on doing some of the things I've seen folks do to try to get a car through an MOT, then it might indeed be a good idea to make a will...

 

[jrkitching]

What annoys me is when a perfectly working car in good overall condition has a minor fault, which is then misdiagnosed (usually by an eejit with a cheap code reader and limited knowledge) as "an ECU failure", scrappie is called, and its game over.

In the days when such cars would only sell for a few hundred pounds, that happened a lot. Now that you can get £2000+ for just about any ULEZ compliant car with a year's MOT, I suspect a lot more are being repaired.

 

[StevenRB45]

If you're planning on doing some of the things I've seen folks do to try to get a car through an MOT, then it might indeed be a good idea to make a will...

Oh hell no.

It was more a point that if you've got no funds and need an MOT...people find ways and you might want to check any perspective purchase hasn't been similarly fixed/butchered given until recently old pandas were beer money.

 

[irc]

In the days when such cars would only sell for a few hundred pounds, that happened a lot. Now that you can get £2000+ for just about any ULEZ compliant car with a year's MOT, I suspect a lot more are being repaired.

Agreed, ULEZ seems to be making a difference.
Pity it's not the difference they actually want.
That'll be the law of unintended consequences at work then.
There's definitely less small petrol cars coming up lately.

 

[Rogereld]

How do you define reliable? Most cars will be reliable if constantly maintained and repaired to a high standard. Many car owners do not check every component regularly and rely on a service and the MOT test fail or advisory notifications to do that once a year. Is reliability measured by how many items fail and need replacing? Every car I have owned, cheap or expensive, has had a few things that have become known as common faults for that particular vehicle.

Some people may view reliability as how long things keep working without needing repair or maintenance. Some cars may be made to a price point, and specify cheaper components to achieve that. Some cars may be made for a "luxury" market at a higher price and may use components that cost more but also last longer without fault.

I have two rusty fog lights in my fiat, 13 years old. I have two clean fog lights in my Volvo, 21 years old. The difference is either in design, where one is designed to be better protected from corrosion, or in the quality of components used which may be determined by cost.

 

[jrkitching]

How do you define reliable?

Not, on average, needing more unscheduled repairs that other similar products in its class.

Outwith this forum, Fiats still have something of an unwarranted reputation for being one of the less reliable marques.

Whilst I'd say this may have been true fifty years ago, the more recent models hold their own against most other european car brands. In 1.1/1.2 petrol form, the relative simplicity of the 169 Panda makes it a good prospect for anyone considering an older used car. Judging by what's posted on this forum, it's also less likely to suffer from annoying faults than the 500. Despite being built on the same platform, the 500 has a number of inherent design flaws that aren't present on the 169.

If someone asked me if the 169 Panda is a reliable car, I'd say Yes, with no hesitation whatsoever.