Is an automatic a poor choice or not?

[SB1500]

The thought of an automatic to me triggers two responses;-

- You won't be able to fix it yourself.

- It's more prone to go wrong and as above, unless you can afford to pay Fiat etc to fix it a failure in its system means scrapping a car that had it been manual; would have had many years left

Is this generally true or nonsense? We've done a lot of complicated work on my Pandas manual gearbox and no matter what happens it other than exploding into shards it seems we could with reasonable research learn to fix it and acquire the parts pretty easily.

I have the impression that if in the future I decide to buy an Automatic Fiat Panda it'll be a case of minor issues with an automatic gearbox leading to its early death. Due to rumours about it being a crappy system that fails after a few years and one that Fiat won't seem to touch, even within warranty.

What's your view on this? Go for it or steer clear?

 

[AndyRKett]

If you're concerned of the problems, then why would you even think about it? I'm guessing you don't have a need for an automatic

 

[portland_bill]

An automatic Panda is actually an automated manual. The gearbox is identical to look at, and quite likely the same inside too. Attached to the outside is the control system, which consists of a hydraulic pump, and actuators for clutch and gearchange. And of course an electronic control box.
As you press the accelerator, the clutch actuator will gently release the clutch to move the car away, fully engaging it as the speed builds. Then when ready for an upchange, it talks to the engine ECU which releases the engine speed as the gearbox pushes the clutch, changes the gear and releases the clutch again. Can be a bit jerky at times.
Cheaper than a proper auto box.
Can be quite reliable, but when it gives problems, there seems to be little expertise out there to diagnose and fix it. Repairs to the actuators seem to be change the whole thing. The clutch is conventional. When any work is done, I think it needs calibrating, but I think MES can do that.
Driving comfort is not that good and as they get older, are likely to be less well cared for than 'normal' cars. Advantage is that there is little hit on fuel consumption over a manual.

Other types of auto seem to be as reliable as a manual box. The conventional torque converter autobox can be very reliable for mega mileages. Uses more fuel than a manual, but this is getting better as they add more ratios.
Dual-clutch transmissions are great to drive, can be more economical than a manual, but if they go wrong are currently horrendously expensive to repair. I'm sure existing autobox specialists will catch up soon.

I love autos, but would avoid the automated manuals.

 

[SB1500]

If you're concerned of the problems, then why would you even think about it? I'm guessing you don't have a need for an automatic

I don't have the technical experience myself to really know if they're actual problems worth being concerns about which is why I ask.

I was thinking that over the course of someone's lifetime always using your left leg to push the clutch and left arm thrashing a gear stick about, especially in busy traffic, would result in some sort of imbalance in your left part of the body! Could also be BS but an auto would mean no risk of that

 

[SB1500]

An automatic Panda is actually an automated manual. The gearbox is identical to look at, and quite likely the same inside too. Attached to the outside is the control system, which consists of a hydraulic pump, and actuators for clutch and gearchange. And of course an electronic control box.
As you press the accelerator, the clutch actuator will gently release the clutch to move the car away, fully engaging it as the speed builds. Then when ready for an upchange, it talks to the engine ECU which releases the engine speed as the gearbox pushes the clutch, changes the gear and releases the clutch again. Can be a bit jerky at times.
Cheaper than a proper auto box.
Can be quite reliable, but when it gives problems, there seems to be little expertise out there to diagnose and fix it. Repairs to the actuators seem to be change the whole thing. The clutch is conventional. When any work is done, I think it needs calibrating, but I think MES can do that.
Driving comfort is not that good and as they get older, are likely to be less well cared for than 'normal' cars. Advantage is that there is little hit on fuel consumption over a manual.

Other types of auto seem to be as reliable as a manual box. The conventional torque converter autobox can be very reliable for mega mileages. Uses more fuel than a manual, but this is getting better as they add more ratios.
Dual-clutch transmissions are great to drive, can be more economical than a manual, but if they go wrong are currently horrendously expensive to repair. I'm sure existing autobox specialists will catch up soon.

I love autos, but would avoid the automated manuals.

Hmm, if a guru such as yourself would avoid it then that's not such a good sign someone like me could justify the added expense to buy and risks of it failing

 

[varesecrazy]

I don't have the technical experience myself to really know if they're actual problems worth being concerns about which is why I ask.

I was thinking that over the course of someone's lifetime always using your left leg to push the clutch and left arm thrashing a gear stick about, especially in busy traffic, would result in some sort of imbalance in your left part of the body! Could also be BS but an auto would mean no risk of that

if laziness is your wish I'm selling the perfect "car"


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142388131653?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

however the strain on your forearms will be lessened in the drivers seat.. but trebled on the forecourt..:bang:

4 litre V8 petrol.

 

[SB1500]

if laziness is your wish I'm selling the perfect "car"





http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142388131653?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649



however the strain on your forearms will be lessened in the drivers seat.. but trebled on the forecourt..:bang:



4 litre V8 petrol.

Damn I'd bloody love that!!!! It'd only get me in trouble.. driving up the kerbs and around traffic

I'd imagine you have it well looked after anyway!

I sometimes wondered why so many of you chose to drive Pandas.. now it's clear unlike me, you've all got 'other' cars at hand ;-) haha

 

[varesecrazy]

it's NOT actually mine.,
but is certainly shiny.. and well specced.. but probably cost @£40 K 18 years ago..

when my panda was £5.5k new..

 

[varesecrazy]

The thought of an automatic to me triggers two responses;-

- You won't be able to fix it yourself.

- It's more prone to go wrong and as above, unless you can afford to pay Fiat etc to fix it a failure in its system means scrapping a car that had it been manual; would have had many years left

Is this generally true or nonsense? We've done a lot of complicated work on my Pandas manual gearbox and no matter what happens it other than exploding into shards it seems we could with reasonable research learn to fix it and acquire the parts pretty easily.

I have the impression that if in the future I decide to buy an Automatic Fiat Panda it'll be a case of minor issues with an automatic gearbox leading to its early death. Due to rumours about it being a crappy system that fails after a few years and one that Fiat won't seem to touch, even within warranty.

What's your view on this? Go for it or steer clear?

look at it like this,
you've got a perfectly useable panda 5 speed manual,
BUT you want to give your body a rest.. so you go toyour old RC plane/ car box from 5 years ago,

and decide to use the servo's to work the clutch, and gear shift

then you can use your ancient laptop to drive it all..

congratulations ..!! - youve got a 5 speed manual that can change gear itself

and at a fraction of the price of trading your panda..

I've had dealings with them.. actually NICE to drive ( 57 panda duologic)..

but an old-skool "torque converter" auto is far more reliable..and smoother.. but less fuel efficient

best fun was a Mk1 UNO Selecta ( C.V.T. gearbox)- had Hi + Lo .. so effectively "sport-mode"

but they tended to fail at @40K:doh:

if you don't need the complexity.. and risk of inconvenience / big bills.. then don't bother.

 

[SB1500]

look at it like this,

you've got a perfectly useable panda 5 speed manual,

BUT you want to give your body a rest.. so you go toyour old RC plane/ car box from 5 years ago,



and decide to use the servo's to work the clutch, and gear shift



then you can use your ancient laptop to drive it all..



congratulations ..!! - youve got a 5 speed manual that can change gear itself



and at a fraction of the price of trading your panda..



I've had dealings with them.. actually NICE to drive ( 57 panda duologic)..



but an old-skool "torque converter" auto is far more reliable..and smoother.. but less fuel efficient



best fun was a Mk1 UNO Selecta - had Hi + Lo .. so effectively "sport-mode"



but they tended to fail at @40K:doh:



if you don't need the complexity.. and risk of inconvenience / big bills.. then don't bother.

My existing Panda isn't going anywhere yet I hope! I'm asking more in preparation for a future car purchase.

Am I right to think most manufacturers on their smallest car models offer a similar auto to Fiat?

 

[varesecrazy]

My existing Panda isn't going anywhere yet I hope! I'm asking more in preparation for a future car purchase.

Am I right to think most manufacturers on their smallest car models offer a similar auto to Fiat?

generally YES - in a bit to get acceptable fuel economy..,

the CVT was a joint venture with FIAT and FORD mid1980's

was nice - but fragile

 

[SB1500]

generally YES - in a bit to get acceptable fuel economy..,



the CVT was a joint venture with FIAT and FORD mid1980's



was nice - but fragile

Seems 'not worth it' then.

I mean, you guys can fix pretty Much anything from what I can gather, and if you aren't all running around in the automatic Panda's then maybe that accounts for something?

 

[StevenRB45]

Seems 'not worth it' then.

I mean, you guys can fix pretty Much anything from what I can gather, and if you aren't all running around in the automatic Panda's then maybe that accounts for something?

Not really the price difference new would probably account for that more. On a new panda it was a significant price chunk. However automated manual pretty much gives you the worst of both worlds. You have to drive it like a manual but with someone else doing the gears and clutch.

Strangely enough in my day job I ended up chatting to a bloke who'd converted his car to manual by removing the automatic parts and refitting a clutch pedal and manual gear linkage!

 

[SB1500]

So the conclusion;

Not unless you NEED it.

And that most other cars in the class are the same story. The only autos worth having are the 'proper' ones on larger cars

 

[AndyRKett]

If you're passionate about driving, the sort of person who cares about handling and the feel of the steering, someone who enjoys the challenge of a succession of tight bends or getting up to speed after a tight bend on country roads, then don't buy an automatic, they completely dull the driving experience and take away your choices as a driver.

Go to America and you'll find almost everything has an automatic gearbox and there everything is about convenience.

As stated if you don't need an auto box then there is little benefit to buying one.

Also you're not going to cause your self any imbalance by using a clutch and changing gear. Most cab drivers use manual cars and have no such problems

 

[irc]

Old school autoboxes worked well on big lazy engines since the 1930s. Not well suited to small capacity "revvy" engines, and tend to have a disproportionate effect on their fuel economy.
They were basically unchanged until the old mechanical controls started to get replaced with clever electronics, which also seems to have made them less reliable and pushed up the cost of repair when they break.

I suspect they may disappear completely soon as emissions and economy keep pushing the boundaries of what they can do.
Robot changers do get a bad press, but in general they are actually very reliable. It's just that when they do go wrong the cost is often disproportionate to the value of the car, mostly because they are usually fitted to relatively cheap cars.

I have seen repair quotes for DSG gearboxes which were more than a brand new Panda.

As I've said before, I actually like the robotic gearchange (I drive a Panda Dualogic) but realistically if/when the Dualogic unit in it fails the repair costs will far exceed the value of the car.

If it was my only car I might worry about it more, but I intend to keep on using it until it becomes uneconomic.

 

[DavyP]

Guidosimplex make a clutch operating system which operates the clutch by putting your hand near the gear lever, so you can use a manual g/box. Useful if you can't use your left foot. Don't know the cost but it'll probably be expensive. I'll think about it for the next car I might get,as need an auto as disabled.

 

[dave]

fiat put an actuated manual box in the seicento (citymatic) and it was so bad they bought most of the cars back and crushed to save face.
they used the cvt with a powder clutch in the mk2 panda and that was good in a tiny car, they put it in a mk1 punto and the car was too big for it and it would die around 40k miles.
they then put the cvt with a torque converter in the mk2 punto and aslong as oil was changed and it was driven carefully it was a very good box.
but now they have the dual logic that is the same as idea as the old seicento box and plagued with the same problems. this is why we dont have a modern fiat auto in the family any more

 

[AndyRKett]

Guidosimplex make a clutch operating system which operates the clutch by putting your hand near the gear lever, so you can use a manual g/box. Useful if you can't use your left foot. Don't know the cost but it'll probably be expensive. I'll think about it for the next car I might get,as need an auto as disabled.

Saab did this years ago with the sensonic it's not a new idea but as Saab found out it was a terrible idea.

Firstly the whole system was terribly sensitive causing all sorts of problems and eventually failures.

Secondly it make parking a nightmare, without any ability to control the clutch, engine power was either on or off meaning hurtling into a parking space full pelt or sat still revving and not going anywhere, made creeping out of junctions or managing a slight incline difficult as well.

 

[portland_bill]

Guidosimplex make a clutch operating system which operates the clutch by putting your hand near the gear lever, so you can use a manual g/box. Useful if you can't use your left foot. Don't know the cost but it'll probably be expensive. I'll think about it for the next car I might get,as need an auto as disabled.

Saab did this years ago with the sensonic it's not a new idea but as Saab found out it was a terrible idea.

Firstly the whole system was terribly sensitive causing all sorts of problems and eventually failures.

Secondly it make parking a nightmare, without any ability to control the clutch, engine power was either on or off meaning hurtling into a parking space full pelt or sat still revving and not going anywhere, made creeping out of junctions or managing a slight incline difficult as well.

Not a new idea at all. Lots of similar stuff around in the fifties and sixties, Vauxhall and Rootes Group used it a lot. They were all difficult and unreliable.

(Rootes Group. Hillman, Humber, Singer, Sunbeam, Commer. Became Chrysler UK, then part of Peugeot.)