Mot time coming up for our 1.1 2009 Panda, so thought I'd better check the rear brakes. first indication of an issue was the handbrake balance bar was at an angle, so popped the wheels and drums off, low and behold, one of the auto adjusters had fallen to pieces. the shoes looked ok but decided to fit new replacements anyway along with new springs etc. I then checked the wheel cylinders, to find both where leaking on one piston and siezed on the other, so a new pair of wheel cylinders ordered. I removed the wheel bearing/ hub to find that both ABS sensors were damaged, so ordered them. next remove the original brake lines from the wheel cylinders, guess what, the pipe snapped, one at the wheel cylinder, the other at the flexi join! I didn't have the right fittings in my brake pipe making kit (must order some more) so ordered 2 new ready made cupronickle pipes just in case. Next remove the backplates to get at the bolts for the wheel cylinders (stupid design) you guessed it one allen bolt each side siezed and rounded, had to cut the heads off to remove the back plate, one thread came out easily, the other was rust welded in, after many attempts with heat easy outs and so on, removed the stub axle (that was fun, all the studs came out as the nuts jammed on the threads), so that I could drill and tap the thread out, in the meantime the I ordered a 10mmx 1.25 tap and die set to clean out the stub axle threads and studs. with the storm blowing through had to get the wheels back on and the Panda back on its wheels just in case. Today I rebuilt both sides, made up the new brake pipes fitted the new ABS sensors. cleaned up and undersealed the rear axle. ready for bleeding the brakes. Only to find my Eezibleed cap has split in it evidenced by a jet of brake fluid hitting the bonnet, tried another cap that blew off under pressure spraying 1/2 liter of brake fluid everywhere. I'm a bit cheesed off to say the least, what was supposed to be an afternoons work has turned into 3 or 4 weeks, so far, of trials and tribulation, anyone tried vacuum bleeding the brakes?
General fighting me every step of the way
- Thread starter 09 johno
- Start date
Currently reading:
General fighting me every step of the way
Yes, this is how I do mine, and you can also use it for the clutch. The big advantage over most of the other methods is that the potential to spray fluid everywhere and make a mess generally is much reduced.
I use one of these.
You can buy it much cheaper in other places, and secondhand ones turn up quite regularly on the usual auction sites.
Last edited:
Sounds like a snowball job, got bigger the more time rolled on.
Re vacuum bleeding, not a great fan though as mostly working on my own so have used it. It should do the job although if you have old/tired master cylinder seals it can cause air to get into system as it can collapse the back seal in master cylinder allowing air to get sucked in. Hence pressure bleeding can be better .
However as I say often working on my own I have found if you take the bleeder right out and keep topping up the master cylinder, often you can bleed most of the air out by gravity, just shut off bleeder when clean fluid comes out with no bubbles and do not let reservoir run out
.It may sound a bit dodgy, but in the past I have been at UK car manufacturers in the 1970s when we still had some, and they used to connect a fitting to the master cylinder from a tank high up and simply open the bleeders and gravity did the job.
A good day today, Got there in the end, I ordered a cheap chinese vacuum bleeding kit, taking note of the advice, kept the vacuum low so as not pull any seals inside out. wow a much cleaner and easier way to bleed the brakes wish i had bought one of these kits before. So new tools I bought to get this job done...
1/ a set of split ring spanners (wanted a set for a while so this was a good excuse) which made removing and refitting the brake lines easy
2/ a cheap torque bar (£14) that could get to the 280Nm needed for the hub nuts, I checked the accuracy at 200Nm with my other torque wrench which seemed ok
3/ the vacuum bleeding tool kit, I also bought a replacement eezibleed in case the vacuum method didn't work.
The complete job involved new wheel cylinders, new spring kit, new brake shoes, clean and re-grease the wheel bearings, replace both rear brake lines, replace both rear ABS sensors, clean and underseal rear axle, cut and and retap several holes and threads. A quick test drive gives good braking response and handbrake balance bar is level with the handbrake fully on in 5 clicks. Next is to get both rear tyres replaced as one is cracking within the tread and the other on the wall (5mm and 3mm tread) they are different because I had a puncture in one which was on the shoulder and replaced just the one tyre at the time. Then off for an MOT.
1/ a set of split ring spanners (wanted a set for a while so this was a good excuse) which made removing and refitting the brake lines easy
2/ a cheap torque bar (£14) that could get to the 280Nm needed for the hub nuts, I checked the accuracy at 200Nm with my other torque wrench which seemed ok
3/ the vacuum bleeding tool kit, I also bought a replacement eezibleed in case the vacuum method didn't work.
The complete job involved new wheel cylinders, new spring kit, new brake shoes, clean and re-grease the wheel bearings, replace both rear brake lines, replace both rear ABS sensors, clean and underseal rear axle, cut and and retap several holes and threads. A quick test drive gives good braking response and handbrake balance bar is level with the handbrake fully on in 5 clicks. Next is to get both rear tyres replaced as one is cracking within the tread and the other on the wall (5mm and 3mm tread) they are different because I had a puncture in one which was on the shoulder and replaced just the one tyre at the time. Then off for an MOT.
Today had two new Falken Sincera SN832 Ecorun tyres fitted to the rear (Ive got Toyo's on the front) and as it was a 20 mile round trip at all speeds it was good to find on return, after checking the wheel bolt torques and refitting the wheel trims which I had left off after the work, that there are no leaks from the new brake pipes and the new tyres, on first impression, are quiet and comfortable which suits my kind of driving. Now to book an MOT.
Good to hear it has all worked well in the end 
Our old 169 did well, but I had similar grief from my sons Seicento
Was a protracted affair and due to time constraints it spent time In a Garage.. Cost as much as the cars value
You can see how all these 10 to 15 year old 'budget cars' are now disappearing from our roads
Our old 169 did well, but I had similar grief from my sons Seicento
Was a protracted affair and due to time constraints it spent time In a Garage.. Cost as much as the cars value
You can see how all these 10 to 15 year old 'budget cars' are now disappearing from our roads
Out of all the vehicles I now own (7), our Panda is the newest, the oldest being 40 year old motorcycle I have a 28 year old motorhome and a 24 year old van/people carrier a 26 year old Reliant, out of all of them, the Panda has been the most obstinate to work on, but more than likely due to poor previous maintenance. Its all relatively simple to work on, just a bit frustrating.Good to hear it has all worked well in the end
Our old 169 did well, but I had similar grief from my sons Seicento
Was a protracted affair and due to time constraints it spent time In a Garage.. Cost as much as the cars value
You can see how all these 10 to 15 year old 'budget cars' are now disappearing from our roads
took the Panda for the MOT, failed on front control arm rear joints and a split rubber boot (which I changed for last years MOT). are these things an common every couple of year failure point, or am i just being unlucky? should I just buy a set of control arms every year and just replace them as a matter of course?
Mine got 1 Ebay set.. And the factory originals in 14 years /90k
Just be glad it's not a 500, where the front bumper has to come off to do the same job..
I'm still running the original control arms after 13+ years and >110k miles, passed MOT a couple of months back but will need to replace them before the next one as the rubber is definitely starting to perish. There's still no appreciable play in them, though.
Depends what quality of arms you buy; there are various options, at various prices.
Generally, you get what you pay for - though with parts these days, you sometimes just have to settle for what you can get.
Using the cheapest possible parts is generally false economy on a car you're planning to keep for a while.
Even some of the "brand name" arms seem to have bushes that fail in under 2 years, and they seem to be getting worse. Or maybe it is the roads getting worse...
I had a pile of arms which I had taken off for failed bushes over the last 3 years, and I was on the point of throwing into the metal skip when...
Took a set of arms off a Panda which was due for MOT, as, predictably, one rear bush had failed. The other was kind-of OK, but not great.
Checked the front bush and the ball joint - both perfect.
Delivery of replacement arms delayed for some reason, and car was in the way.
Remembered I had some rear bushes on the shelf, so pressed the old ones out, pressed the new ones in and...
Failed the MOT on broken rear spring. About an inch missing off the passenger side spring. Grrrrr.
Anyway, bushes were about £3 or £4 each, so cheap fix.
Been going through the pile of discarded ones, only found one so far with knackered ball joint, so I guess I'll be ordering a box of bushes soon.
I had a pile of arms which I had taken off for failed bushes over the last 3 years, and I was on the point of throwing into the metal skip when...
Took a set of arms off a Panda which was due for MOT, as, predictably, one rear bush had failed. The other was kind-of OK, but not great.
Checked the front bush and the ball joint - both perfect.
Delivery of replacement arms delayed for some reason, and car was in the way.
Remembered I had some rear bushes on the shelf, so pressed the old ones out, pressed the new ones in and...
Failed the MOT on broken rear spring. About an inch missing off the passenger side spring. Grrrrr.
Anyway, bushes were about £3 or £4 each, so cheap fix.
Been going through the pile of discarded ones, only found one so far with knackered ball joint, so I guess I'll be ordering a box of bushes soon.
How easy were they to get in/out? My previous experience with other cars has been that this job is somewhere between difficult and impossible without a hydraulic press, but supply chain issues and current parts prices make refurbishing existing arms worth considering again. As you say, the bushes (if you can get them) are cheap enough.
The balljoints are fine, even after 110k.
I have to admit, if I didn't have a press, I wouldn't have even tried it myself. I have heard of some Hardy types who cut the old bush out and press in a new one with threaded rod and some 60mm tube, but I'm too old and feeble for that kind of stuff nowadays.
However, before I had the press, I used to "batch up" things that needed a press and then bung a few quid to a local garage to use theirs for 20 minutes or so.
However, before I had the press, I used to "batch up" things that needed a press and then bung a few quid to a local garage to use theirs for 20 minutes or so.
I've had a vacuum bleeder for many years, as often cannot get anyone to push the pedal when needed.
The bleed nipple can allow air in past the threads, so the stream of bubbles will never cease, even when fully bled. Sealing them with PTFE tape helps.
The cylinders have a spring inside, that tries to expand the pistons. With the drums and shoes off, allow the wheel cylinders to expand, but be careful to not allow the pistons to pop out. Open the bleed nipple and squeeze the cylinder pistons inwards. Close the nipple, and allow them to expand again. Repeat until all bubbles gone.
Can do the same with calipers, but need to expand them with the footbrake, so much care is needed. An old pad, piece of wood, or suitable spacer can be used to prevent pistons moving too far.
As an aside. On a motorcycle front brake, bleeding is difficult, as the master cylinder does not displace anough to move air all the way down and out. As the lever is released, the air is already moving up again. My trick, found years ago, is to open the bleed nipple and allow fluid to flow until bubble free. Close nipple. Pump brake carefully to push caliper pistons out as far as possible without popping out. Leave overnight. The air will gently rise overnight, to sit in the pipe, just outside the master cylinder. In the morning, gently push the pistons back in, which will expel the air into the master cylinder. Magic.
The bleed nipple can allow air in past the threads, so the stream of bubbles will never cease, even when fully bled. Sealing them with PTFE tape helps.
The cylinders have a spring inside, that tries to expand the pistons. With the drums and shoes off, allow the wheel cylinders to expand, but be careful to not allow the pistons to pop out. Open the bleed nipple and squeeze the cylinder pistons inwards. Close the nipple, and allow them to expand again. Repeat until all bubbles gone.
Can do the same with calipers, but need to expand them with the footbrake, so much care is needed. An old pad, piece of wood, or suitable spacer can be used to prevent pistons moving too far.
As an aside. On a motorcycle front brake, bleeding is difficult, as the master cylinder does not displace anough to move air all the way down and out. As the lever is released, the air is already moving up again. My trick, found years ago, is to open the bleed nipple and allow fluid to flow until bubble free. Close nipple. Pump brake carefully to push caliper pistons out as far as possible without popping out. Leave overnight. The air will gently rise overnight, to sit in the pipe, just outside the master cylinder. In the morning, gently push the pistons back in, which will expel the air into the master cylinder. Magic.
