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And even though the platform is old, it can still be modified to make it better?
General Fiat Panda 4th generation (2019)
- Thread starter The Pretender
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General Fiat Panda 4th generation (2019)
OP
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De FIAT/Abarth 500 use the same platvorm.
Good question. I'd put money on it was though.
TL;DR: Electric power is a farce until the global economy makes it an absolute necessity.
Generally speaking electric cars are still in a 'what if' situation, because battery technology simply hasn't moved forward as much as it needs to be truly viable on such a large scale. China has the majority of the global lithium store, and they have strict limits on how much can be mined and exported per year. Ramping up demand for that would be an economic hurricane for one. Second, the environmental benefits of not using fossil fuels are currently not enough to offset the environmental impact of mining and refining raw materials such as lithium, not to mention the issue of energy production (clean power plants etc) itself being clean enough. There was recently an article somewhere that estimated the CO2 impact of the production of a single Tesla Model 3 was equivalent to the lifetime (estimated at 15 years) impact of a 1.6 turbo petrol car. Add the lifetime impact from energy production for the Tesla, and the long term benefits are suspect (though the immediate reduction in urban environment pollutants is instantly apparent and therefore good publicity). The issue is further compounded by battery degradation, which leaves electric power for vehicles in a precarious place. There isn't enough incentive for vehicle manufacturers to fully commit to it, hybrids as a stop-gap solution are frowned upon for being half-measures, and countries and governments simply don't have the momentum to do anything about energy production and clean energy from an economic perspective to provide the incentive necessary for vehicles to fully commit to electric power.
Generally speaking electric cars are still in a 'what if' situation, because battery technology simply hasn't moved forward as much as it needs to be truly viable on such a large scale. China has the majority of the global lithium store, and they have strict limits on how much can be mined and exported per year. Ramping up demand for that would be an economic hurricane for one. Second, the environmental benefits of not using fossil fuels are currently not enough to offset the environmental impact of mining and refining raw materials such as lithium, not to mention the issue of energy production (clean power plants etc) itself being clean enough. There was recently an article somewhere that estimated the CO2 impact of the production of a single Tesla Model 3 was equivalent to the lifetime (estimated at 15 years) impact of a 1.6 turbo petrol car. Add the lifetime impact from energy production for the Tesla, and the long term benefits are suspect (though the immediate reduction in urban environment pollutants is instantly apparent and therefore good publicity). The issue is further compounded by battery degradation, which leaves electric power for vehicles in a precarious place. There isn't enough incentive for vehicle manufacturers to fully commit to it, hybrids as a stop-gap solution are frowned upon for being half-measures, and countries and governments simply don't have the momentum to do anything about energy production and clean energy from an economic perspective to provide the incentive necessary for vehicles to fully commit to electric power.
gar074
Prominent member
Probably the most sensible contribution on electric cars that I've read. It's typical of headline-seeking politicians like Gove to jump on the nearest convenient eco bandwagon, while swallowing wholesale the snake-oil (does one swallow snake oil?) of narcissist megalomaniacs like Elon Musk.
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Apparently the next Panda will not arrive before 2022.
Latest rumors has it that Hyundai will take over FCA, making Hyundai-FCA the biggest auto builder in the world.
The Hyundai takeover will be done before May 2019 if it go's ahead.
I don't expect much will happen till that time.
I hope to see the 120 hp GSE-Firefly engine in the Panda by the end of the year.
Latest rumors has it that Hyundai will take over FCA, making Hyundai-FCA the biggest auto builder in the world.
The Hyundai takeover will be done before May 2019 if it go's ahead.
I don't expect much will happen till that time.
I hope to see the 120 hp GSE-Firefly engine in the Panda by the end of the year.
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The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
No they are renewing, I have seen one its a bit larger being based on a 44 ton lorry chassis slightly cut down. This enables it to follow current trend to make the biggest small car ever and also to pass the Euro crash tests. Its a shame I think a class 1 HGV licence may be required, but what the hell .... Customer panels apparnetly made it cleas thats what Panda drivers actually want.......
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According to "Passione Auto Italian" :
Nuova Fiat Panda: a settembre i primi test su strada.
New Fiat Panda: in September the first test on the road.
Prime informazioni sulla nuova Fiat Panda.
A settembre inizieranno i primi test su strada.
La vedremo nel 2020 e la sua produzione potrebbe rimanere a Pomigliano d'Arco (Napoli).
First information about the new Fiat Panda.
In September they will begin the first road test.
We will see it in 2020 and its production could remain in Pomigliano d'Arco (Naples).
Nuova Fiat Panda: a settembre i primi test su strada.
New Fiat Panda: in September the first test on the road.
Prime informazioni sulla nuova Fiat Panda.
A settembre inizieranno i primi test su strada.
La vedremo nel 2020 e la sua produzione potrebbe rimanere a Pomigliano d'Arco (Napoli).
First information about the new Fiat Panda.
In September they will begin the first road test.
We will see it in 2020 and its production could remain in Pomigliano d'Arco (Naples).
gar074
Prominent member
And mid-engined, apparently.
If they hadn't given up on the TwinAir, they could have one-upped the Twingo by shoving it under the rear seats, making it rear wheel drive, actually having a frunk (front trunk) and actually improved on their fun city car reputation but alas. With Marchionne gone and the big SUVs being the only products in the FCA consistently bringing in profit, I have a feeling it'll take another oil crisis before they get serious about small cars again.
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Apparently Marchionne had big plans, but most plans got cancelled.
"The models provided by Marchionne, but then deleted or postponed".
I modelli previsti da Marchionne ma poi cancellati.
Piani Industriali dal 2009 al 2018
2009 - 2010
Alfa Romeo 169
Alfa Romeo Crossover (arriva con il piano 2018 - 2022)
Fiat Crossover medio
Fiat Bravo SW
Lancia Coupè Cabriolet
2012 - 2014
Alfa Romeo Mito 5p
Alfa Romeo Giulia rinviata nel 2016
Alfa Romeo Giulia SW
Alfa Romeo SUV medio (Selvio nel 2017)
Alfa Romeo SUV grande (arriva con il piano 2018 - 2022)
Alfa Romeo Spider
Fiat Topolino
Fiat Nuova Punto
Lancia media due volumi, tre volumi e SW
Lancia medio-grande tre volumi
Lancia SUV grande
2016 - 2018
Alfa Romeo 169
Alfa Romeo Nuova Giulietta
Alfa Romeo Giulia Gran Coupè (arriva con il piano 2018 - 2022)
Alfa Romeo Giulietta Quadrifoglio
Alfa Romeo E-SUV (arriva con il piano 2018 - 2022)
Alfa Romeo Spider
Fiat 500 5porte (potrebbe essere una versione della nuova 3 porte. Arriva la Giardiniera nel 2020)
Fiat crossover compatto
Fiat Nuova Panda (arriva con il piano 2018 - 2022)
Della gestione passata si è parlato tanto, ma se fossero arrivati questi modelli, oltre a delle gamme interessanti, magari Lancia avrebbe avuto un destino diverso.
Alcuni modelli sono stati rinviati, altri cancellati.
"Past management has talked so much, but what if they got these models as well as interesting ranges – maybe Launches would have had a different destiny.
Some models were postponed, some cancelled".
Source: Passione Auto Italiane
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PandaEleganza
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Thanks - interesting list...the Alfa plans seem largely to have survived, if delayed.
I remember photos of the Topolino mules, based on a cut-down 169 Panda (wasn't there a rumour that BMW would collaborate with Fiat and create a new Isetta). The renders which were published were quite handsome. Whether they would have made any money out of this is a different matter- v small cars are often not hugely profitable. If anyone could have made the idea work, it would have been Fiat. I would certainly have been interested in one.
For me the big loss (apart from Lancia, of course) is the planned rework of the Punto in c. 2013-14. This presumably would have been a comprehensive overhaul on the same platform, akin to what Opel/Vauxhall did with the Corsa in c. 2014-15. The Punto was such a big seller for Fiat in the 90s and early 2000s, and it seems a terrible shame that (leaving aside the 500L/500X) they have basically abandoned that part of the market.
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I wonder what will happen to Alfa now? Will they continue the revival or throw all investment behind Jeep? I've also heard that Magnetti Marelli is going to be spun-off Ferrari-style and not sold to Samsung after all. I would like to see Maserati back under the umbrella of Ferrari - that would solve Ferrari's large volume vs exclusivity dilemma - as they can use Maserati as a higher volume brand - they share a lot of engineering in any case - it would make sound sense.
TL;DR: Alfa spent too much money on a sedan for a shrinking market and an SUV that doesn't appeal to posh SUV buyers with money to blow on an options list. A whole brand with only two models does not a model range make.
Unfortunately I think the survival of the Alfa revival was heavily dependent on sales of vehicles based on their new front-engine rear wheel drive platform, but the Giulia and Stelvio are having a hard time meeting their sales targets due to them being priced equally with their German rivals, lacking enough petrol engine options to be competitive in diesel punishing markets (especially markets that tax based on displacement) and electronic niggles tanking their reliability ratings. They can't cut prices because the research and development costs from the platform need to start being recouped before they can introduce new models based on the platform, and don't want to detract from the new Alfa image, but the Giulia simply doesn't tick enough of the right boxes for fleet and executive sedan buyers other than 'looks good' to justify it over ze Germans. Sure everyone wants an SUV nowadays, but the market being saturated with other premium options from all manufacturers means the Stelvio also needs to stand out more than just 'looks good', because as far as buyers for posh SUVs are concerned (namely, image conscious city dwellers with no regard for the things Alfa wants to really cash in on such as sporty driving or Italian flair at the cost of practicality), a giant (and more importantly working) infotainment screen paired with a Jaguar or Land Rover badge (or, again, ze Germans) carries greater cachet than 'looks good' or 'drives good'. I hate to say it, but unless they can diversify this new platform into either bigger (mass sales, smaller vehicles) markets or more profitable (high-end luxury where metallic paint has a 3k pound profit margin) vehicles, they might be going the way of Lancia.
Unfortunately I think the survival of the Alfa revival was heavily dependent on sales of vehicles based on their new front-engine rear wheel drive platform, but the Giulia and Stelvio are having a hard time meeting their sales targets due to them being priced equally with their German rivals, lacking enough petrol engine options to be competitive in diesel punishing markets (especially markets that tax based on displacement) and electronic niggles tanking their reliability ratings. They can't cut prices because the research and development costs from the platform need to start being recouped before they can introduce new models based on the platform, and don't want to detract from the new Alfa image, but the Giulia simply doesn't tick enough of the right boxes for fleet and executive sedan buyers other than 'looks good' to justify it over ze Germans. Sure everyone wants an SUV nowadays, but the market being saturated with other premium options from all manufacturers means the Stelvio also needs to stand out more than just 'looks good', because as far as buyers for posh SUVs are concerned (namely, image conscious city dwellers with no regard for the things Alfa wants to really cash in on such as sporty driving or Italian flair at the cost of practicality), a giant (and more importantly working) infotainment screen paired with a Jaguar or Land Rover badge (or, again, ze Germans) carries greater cachet than 'looks good' or 'drives good'. I hate to say it, but unless they can diversify this new platform into either bigger (mass sales, smaller vehicles) markets or more profitable (high-end luxury where metallic paint has a 3k pound profit margin) vehicles, they might be going the way of Lancia.
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Motoring journalists moaned about the 156 and 159 being front wheel drive, and rejoice the Giulia being rear drive, yet the 159 was a much bigger hit than the Giulia. I can count the number of Giulias I've seen on 1 hand...
The 156 and 159 had a range of engines that actually satisfied the needs of the many, from the little 1.6 Twin Spark to the 3.2 liter Busso V6, along with an assortment of diesels while the Giulia still doesn't have anything to compete with the VAG group 1.4/5 TSI or the 1.6 turbo in the lower spec 3 series. Sure, the 156 was mediocre at best in crash tests but it was a lot of car for the money and drove well due to the light chassis and decent suspension. Not everyone loved the new design language of the 159, but nobody could argue with the amount of car they got compared to an Audi or BMW, and those whom did like it bought it for the looks anyway. Today, however, the Giulia is about as large as a 3 series, both in and out, but the odd ergonomics and deep dash to accommodate the rather large gearbox means it feels more cramped inside in both rows. The front seats and B pillar are at such a place that it's nearly impossible to look out to the side and the armrest on the door is absolutely useless. These are issues I could understand and somewhat forgive in, say, a MiTo or Panda, but not on something that costs more, spec for spec, than an Audi A4.
I won't even start on how much of a wasted opportunity (despite being a great car) the 4C was.
I won't even start on how much of a wasted opportunity (despite being a great car) the 4C was.
gar074
Prominent member
Great analysis.
