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General Fiat Panda 4th generation (2019)

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General Fiat Panda 4th generation (2019)

The Pretender said:
Alfa Romeo will not survive with the Giulia and Stelvio, they invested in the wrong segments.
They better made a car that both replaced the Giulietta and Mito in a size between the both. ;)
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If anything they appear to be heading further up the market with the forthcoming 8C.
 
The Pretender said:
More low sale numbers then.
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I think that they are looking to make Alfa a Ferrari for the masses... It's odd really... Seat and now Hyundai have declared that they see themselves as Alfa's competitors
But Alfa definitely seems to have a more exclusive vision.
 
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I'd agree that they've invested in the wrong segments. I can sortof see why they've done it, but the Giulia (whilst quick in development in its current form) took far too much dithering after the 159 went off-sale, and the market has changed a lot in that time - people aren't wanting large saloons/hatches like they once did for starters. Giulia seems a very competitive car, but the overall package (purchase price, servicing costs, dealer network availability/quality) isn't competitive compared to the Germans. The Stelvio is in a growing market segment and is better priced, but has the same issues with servicing costs & dealer network, and isn't quite such a good drive as the Giulia.

If they'd launched other new models too then fair enough, but launching these two models whilst starving their regular customers of a replacement Giulietta & MiTo leaves a bitter taste. It's almost like they think if they build something £15k more than a Giulietta, Giulietta buyers will buy one. Well, some might, but many won't. Particularly when it's in a segment that people don't particularly want and when they already have the impression that Alfa's aftersales isn't good enough at Giulietta level. The fact that Fiat is being starved of anything that isn't badged 500 will surely mean many loyal owners jumping ship (n)
 
oyumurtaci: where did you see about the 156 crash test result? I didn't think Euro NCAP tested a 156?
The Pretender: it pains me to say it, but personally, I think the company will basically become Chrysler Fiat Automobiles. Rather than saving the company, I feel that Marchionne has merely delayed it's death by a couple of decades.
JCarp16: the only reason to buy a volkswagen is for its "perceived quality". A seat is literally just a vw with the perceived quality removed. Hyundais are a good car, but they're still very much mainstream: what you buy if you have the intelligence to not buy a ford. Neither of them are a rival for Alfa. I don't see Alfa as a rival to the germans, tbh: they're what you buy if you're a snob with no interest in cars, whereas an Alfa is what you buy if you see a car as more than just a mode of transport and/or status symbol. I feel Alfa went to all the trouble of developing an entirely new RWD platform at a time when RWD has never been less relevant. Being predominantly FWD has never affected the sales for audi or Volvo, and I suspect that the number of people who buy a BMW because of it being "The Ultimate Driving Machine" isn't as high as they'd like.

I really don't understand what made Marchionne neglect Fiat so badly: it was the Panda 169, Grande Punto and 500 that saved the company's bacon. Surely it would've made more sense to keep those 3 cars selling like hot cakes first and foremost before taking over Chrysler?! [emoji53]
 
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puntofan01 said:
oyumurtaci: where did you see about the 156 crash test result? I didn't think Euro NCAP tested a 156?
The Pretender: it pains me to say it, but personally, I think the company will basically become Chrysler Fiat Automobiles. Rather than saving the company, I feel that Marchionne has merely delayed it's death by a couple of decades.
JCarp16: the only reason to buy a volkswagen is for its "perceived quality". A seat is literally just a vw with the perceived quality removed. Hyundais are a good car, but they're still very much mainstream: what you buy if you have the intelligence to not buy a ford. Neither of them are a rival for Alfa. I don't see Alfa as a rival to the germans, tbh: they're what you buy if you're a snob with no interest in cars, whereas an Alfa is what you buy if you see a car as more than just a mode of transport and/or status symbol. I feel Alfa went to all the trouble of developing an entirely new RWD platform at a time when RWD has never been less relevant. Being predominantly FWD has never affected the sales for audi or Volvo, and I suspect that the number of people who buy a BMW because of it being "The Ultimate Driving Machine" isn't as high as they'd like.

I really don't understand what made Marchionne neglect Fiat so badly: it was the Panda 169, Grande Punto and 500 that saved the company's bacon. Surely it would've made more sense to keep those 3 cars selling like hot cakes first and foremost before taking over Chrysler?! [emoji53]
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There's been a lot of criticism of Sergio over the years but first and foremost he was a businessman charged with saving 2 stretcher-cases that possibly wouldn't exist without him. He turned a $7bn company into a $72bn global player. Ferrari is stronger than it's ever been - I feel the spin-off helped it to realise the potential it didn't have mired within the confines of a larger company. Fiat - well what of Fiat? I love the brand and have driven them since I started driving 30 years ago. What actually is Fiat's identity? I'm not sure I know anymore. Are they still needed? Are they doing exactly the same job as any other mainstream manufacturer of anodyne European and Asian boxes? If they are a budget brand then their prices need to be lower, if they want to charge higher prices then the quality of the product needs to reflect that. With Jeep, FCA have a clear identity which is why they're the most successful of their brands. Sergio's argument in throwing investment into brands like Alfa, Jeep and Maserati was they were aspirational brands - brands that could have premium price structures and, therefore, greater profit margins. So far, it's been less of a success with Alfa and Maserati - there's still much potential to be realised - but Jeep are selling well worldwide and in their home market. Decisions made on profit margins have kept the company afloat. Perhaps Fiat will be pared down completely - maybe it will become like Lancia - but it's likely to be a business decision over a sentimental one.
 
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That's the tragedy of it: Fiat HAD and identity. The Panda and Punto were stylish and characterful runarounds that offered excellent value for money for those intelligent enough to give them a try, and then they had the 500, which was a popular piece of retro chic. 10 years ago, all 3 sold like hot cakes, and with proper investment, they would've continued to be immensely popular. As it was, Sergio decided to cash in on the 500 brand, whilst neglecting the Panda and Punto: Fiat's core product. No complaints with the current Panda: it's still a great car, very much fit for purpose, but they jacked the UK prices up, but have never really made much effort to advertise it. With the Punto, they had a fantastic product, and then completely neglected it, to the extent that it faded from public consideration. With regards to the 500, I understand them trying to exploit the brand, but there's been far too much emphasis on it.
 
Despite what it says in the video, a private party test at 40mph yielded this result:



Something to keep in mind is that the 156 is based on the TIPO platform, which is a design dating back to the late 80's, and it was never intended to take part in crash tests in the first place (since they weren't mandatory at the time of sale). It was, instead, torsionally rigid that gave it great handling characteristics for a FWD car which was sort of the point at the time. This is also why the 159 was significantly heavier, as it had to meet safety regulations.

Also, I'm with JCarp all the way. Business decisions based on profit margins will determine brand futures rather than sentiment, and I'd rather have that as opposed to a market flooded with VAG replicas and high-value design blunders from the Korean makes. At least the French are keeping things interesting in the small car market with the comfort-focused and highly customizable C3 and the awkward but interesting Twingo.
 
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Just an observation here: there's a lot of mention of profit margins, yet no mention of economies of scale. Bearing in mind the financial crisis of a few years ago, surely it's far better to shift a lot of low profit margin cars, than to shift a few high profit 1s? To me, putting so much emphasis on higher end models is rather like putting all your eggs in 1 basket...
 
Yes, but also no. It's complicated. Economic theory is something the whole word is still navigating, but something history has indicated is that in times of economic meltdown, it's the lower and middle classes that lose the majority of their buying power while the upper classes remain relatively liquid. During belt tightening measures, most of the mass market buyers will simply forgo a large expenditure like a car, even if it is priced to sell, while it simply won't matter to buyers of luxury goods. That being said, as you stated the market volume for high margin items is simply a smaller market in general, which is also part of what keeps those margins high, so a steady stream of mass market vehicles are required especially from large manufacturers to keep a stable income, while supercar manufacturers can get away with delaying products and deliveries while still taking orders for cars to be delivered in 5 years to fund the day-to-day.
 
Still no pictures of the rumored road tests of the next generation Panda that would start in september 2018.
And till that time no clue in what direction FIAT will develop the Next Gen Panda.
Rumour has it that the next Panda could be based on the Brazilian Argo. (cost reason)
With a 252,1 wheelbase (22.1 cm more then present Panda) and a 4mtr overall length (35 cm longer, but could be less by design) the Argo base could bring a little bigger and roomier Next Gen Panda, comparable with the new Ford Ka+, wheelbase 248,9 cm and overall length 392,9 cm
Basing the next Panda on the already developed Argo, would save a lot of money.
By redesigning all the front parts, doors and rear hatch, bumper and lights, they can give the Panda it's own design.
By saving on development cost they could offer the next Panda in probably the same price range as now or maybe even cheaper.
 
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