Engine mount snapped in my Fiat 500 2011 Lounge

[EllieBoxall]

I'm assuming here that the garage you bought the car from, is the last recorded keeper on the V5 (log book)? If it isn't the garage, then it should be the last recorded private owner and it should state their name and address on the log book IIRC.

If the last previous private owner is shown on the V5, why not write to them and ask what happened to the car whilst it was in their ownership? This could be quite interesting, especially if the car had been written off in an accident and as far as the last owner was concerned, the car had been disposed of permanently. If only the garage is listed as the last recorded owner, you could try writing to DVLA requesting information of previous keepers of the vehicle. You will have to pay for the information though but of course they might say no anyway due to the Data Protection Act. However, in the case of suspected fraud, you may have 'good cause/reason' to request the info.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...an-individual-for-information-about-a-vehicle

https://www.gov.uk/request-information-from-dvla

http://ico.org.uk/for_the_public/topic_specific_guides/dvla

Also, has the car had an MOT yet? If so, you should be able to find out what was picked up on the last MOT test, if of course it was all legit:

https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history-vehicle

I know the previous owner definitely wasn't the garage because the car came without locking wheel nuts and I had to wait until my paperwork came back before I could take it into Fiat to have replacement ones put on. The car had an MOT in February and came back clear, but after looking at the company check link JRKitching sent me, I can see the director of Fleet cars- Wayne Davey- is also the director at Fleet Service Centre (next door), which is where the car was serviced and MOT'd before I bought it. I have printed out the form to request the previous owners information, thank you.

 

[jrkitching]

To help you take this forward, Fleet Car Sales are a Limited Company; the Company
registration number is 07135788 and their registered office is:

CEDAR HOUSE
CEDAR LANE
FRIMLEY
CAMBERLEY
SURREY
GU16 7HZ

Summary financial information can be found here.

 

[EllieBoxall]

I was reading through the RAC article sent to me so just did a check on my car with mycarcheck.com and everything came back clear. I'm speaking with Fiat head office again tomorrow to try and gain some more information as if I cant easily find the write off information online, then I know that is what Fleet will say, but considering they were the ones who bought the car, they should ask the right questions in the first place. I am really grateful to everyone who has commented and helped so far!! I am going to write my letter tomorrow and send it off and ask for a resolution date of Friday 15th, is that too much / not enough time? I have been given a template where I can ask for a 'repair, replacement, compensation or refund' any advice which will be the best route to take to get as much back as possible from this? I am going to continue making payments to my finance company and the Fiat garage in Aldershot know not to do any work on the car, I am keeping them fully updated with the situation so that is good. Thank you again.

 

[zanes]

Thank you everyone, the situation has just got worse. Fiat head office were investigating my problem, they asked for a full report and photos from the mechanic of my car at Fiat Aldershot, they came back and asked for more detailed photos so at the moment my car is completely stripped. Yesterday afternoon I received a call from head office to say: unfortunately they would not be helping me out with any goodwill in this situation because the car was written off late last year (something I was not made aware of when I bought the car)and that they have no record of any repairs or where they were done. They also informed me that the car has never been registered for any services or MOT's apart from the ones done on the car in February this year by Fleet cars who I bought it from. When I bought the car it was sold with 'full service history' I looked at the service book and saw two Fiat stamps with an ID number, postcode and telephone number. The postcode doesn't exist and the telephone number is an old mans home. I've no idea what I've been driving for the last 5 months and thank the lord I was driving in stop start traffic and not on the motorway. There is a HPI check with the car from 02/02/14 which says everything is clear. I'm really grateful for all your input so far but if anyone can help any further id be even more grateful! Thank you

The bit in bold (especially underlined) and the fact that you've paid some of it by credit card means you are home and dry- I'm 99% sure the credit card company are "liable" for the entire amount, not just the £1500.

Don't arse around with the dealer or FIAT UK, get onto the card company tomorrow, tell them you've been sold a written off car by a dealer without being informed of it's status and you've been misled about its service history and you want a refund. This is exactly what they take on by offering consumer credit.

Then get onto trading standards.

 

[306maxi]

Well the credit card company is not liable as such, they'll just bend the people responsible over and have their way with them.

 

[frupi]

Ellie, another form which might be useful. Again, sorry, but there are fees involved. If Fiat have told you the car had been written off, there should have been a marker against it. If the marker wasn't removed or didn't pass a VIC test, then there's another whole load of fish guts:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-identity-check/overview

 

[zanes]

Well the credit card company is not liable as such, they'll just bend the people responsible over and have their way with them.

:yeahthat:

Was trying to be as succinct as possible.

From recent experiences with credit card "refunds", the card company will not mess around.

 

[dave]

surley if fiat are refusing to repair because they claim its written off then they should confirm that in writing?
if its not written off as they claim then they should repair it?

its not unknown for fiat to buy back a troublesome car and sell it to a breaker as break only but not record it officially any where, then some of these cars find their way back onto the market. a lot of seicento citymatic's went this way.

 

[varesecrazy]

surley if fiat are refusing to repair because they claim its written off then they should confirm that in writing?
if its not written off as they claim then they should repair it?

its not unknown for fiat to buy back a troublesome car and sell it to a breaker as break only but not record it officially any where, then some of these cars find their way back onto the market. a lot of seicento citymatic's went this way.

true,
but surely major accident damage SHOULD be different..,
charlie

 

[EllieBoxall]

surley if fiat are refusing to repair because they claim its written off then they should confirm that in writing?
if its not written off as they claim then they should repair it?

its not unknown for fiat to buy back a troublesome car and sell it to a breaker as break only but not record it officially any where, then some of these cars find their way back onto the market. a lot of seicento citymatic's went this way.

I have in writing from Fiat head office, this is what they say:

"[FONT=&quot]As discussed, following investigation we have been made aware that you vehicle was previously involved in an accident which resulted in the above mentioned vehicle being deemed a write off in 2013. We are also aware that your vehicle has had no servicing or maintenance history through our Fiat dealer network since its first registration on 19th April 2011."

[/FONT]They have offered me a deposit towards a new car as a gesture of goodwill but I need to take this up with Fleet car sales now.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[dave]

deposit is good.
do you know who bought the hpi check you have with the car? there is some sort of insurance with them if they say its clear and it turns out it isnt, but i guess that the person who paid for the report has to put in the claim

 

[JTD_Liam]

I have in writing from Fiat head office, this is what they say:

"[FONT=&quot]As discussed, following investigation we have been made aware that you vehicle was previously involved in an accident which resulted in the above mentioned vehicle being deemed a write off in 2013. We are also aware that your vehicle has had no servicing or maintenance history through our Fiat dealer network since its first registration on 19th April 2011."[/FONT]

They have offered me a deposit towards a new car as a gesture of goodwill but I need to take this up with Fleet car sales now.

A terrible situation which I can imagine must be incredibly frustrating. However credit where it's due, Fiat actually seem to have been thoroughly decent in their handling of this. It's exactly the sort of back-up you'd like from a manufacturer, even though ultimately none of this appears to be the fault of Fiat themselves.

The advice on this thread seems totally sound & I don't think there's anything substantial I could add which would help, but just wanted to say I hope you get it resolved

 

[zanes]

Why are FIAT even interested/being involved? On the face of it this has nothing to do with them- the car wasn't sold to the OP through their dealer network, it has no service history with FIAT and if the car has been written off they can wash their hands of it.

It doesn't even sound like a manufacturing fault any more- more like a car that's been written off and fixed on the cheap ("oh, that engine mount looks OK").

Have you been in touch with your card company, OP?

 

[EllieBoxall]

Why are FIAT even interested/being involved? On the face of it this has nothing to do with them- the car wasn't sold to the OP through their dealer network, it has no service history with FIAT and if the car has been written off they can wash their hands of it.

It doesn't even sound like a manufacturing fault any more- more like a car that's been written off and fixed on the cheap ("oh, that engine mount looks OK").

Have you been in touch with your card company, OP?

Fiat are involved because I didn't know about the write off or false service history, Fiat head office were approached by Fiat aldershot requesting goodwill to repair the damage because I'm only three months out of my manufactures warranty. Without them being involved I would never know that it was written off last September and that the service history has been forged, they have been very helpful and I'm grateful for that. Originally it was thought to be a manufactures fault, which is why Fiat were contacted, not the other way round.

At the moment I am waiting to hear back from Fleet cars to see if they will issue me with a full refund. Trading standards are aware of the situation.

 

[zanes]

Fiat are involved because I didn't know about the write off or false service history, Fiat head office were approached by Fiat aldershot requesting goodwill to repair the damage because I'm only three months out of my manufactures warranty. Without them being involved I would never know that it was written off last September and that the service history has been forged, they have been very helpful and I'm grateful for that. Originally it was thought to be a manufactures fault, which is why Fiat were contacted, not the other way round.

At the moment I am waiting to hear back from Fleet cars to see if they will issue me with a full refund. Trading standards are aware of the situation.

Ah, that makes more sense.

Very (read, extremely) surprised they've offered you a deposit towards a new car though; but guess that's an easy way of potentially getting a sale themselves.

 

[ahmett]

Fiat are involved because I didn't know about the write off or false service history, Fiat head office were approached by Fiat aldershot requesting goodwill to repair the damage because I'm only three months out of my manufactures warranty. Without them being involved I would never know that it was written off last September and that the service history has been forged, they have been very helpful and I'm grateful for that. Originally it was thought to be a manufactures fault, which is why Fiat were contacted, not the other way round.

At the moment I am waiting to hear back from Fleet cars to see if they will issue me with a full refund. Trading standards are aware of the situation.

Good luck and let us know what happens! You should even claim compensation for being conned from fleet cars and driving a non roadworthy vehicle for so long.

 

[Super Uwe]

Ah, that makes more sense.

Very (read, extremely) surprised they've offered you a deposit towards a new car though; but guess that's an easy way of potentially getting a sale themselves.

Possibly we're surprised because Fiat CS is usually a bit iffy!

I can fully understand Fiat's gesture actually. Ellie has bought a 500 which has turned out to be a lemon. It is not her fault and it is not Fiat's fault either (by the looks of it). So they both have a "common enemy" if you like.

Anyway, I can only echo what everyone else says and hope that you get it sorted. And that whoever is responsible for this actually owns up too.

 

[frupi]

It'll be interesting to hear the outcome of what the garage says. They could well have been duped themselves, however, they must make every effort to ensure a car is legit and clearly as others have already said and as is laid down in law, a car that has previously been written off and repaired, the fact must be made known to the buyer prior to parting with any money.

An aquaintance of my Father-in-Law very recently bought a 4x4 (I don't know which marque) to tow his caravan. A week after purchase and whilst travelling to their holiday destination, the vehicle broke down. It was subsequently recovered to a garage where the mechanic who was dealing with a different mechanical issue on the vehicle informed the owner that their 4x4 was in fact not a 4x4 because someone had removed the drive shafts to the back wheels. Apparently this is common practise by some owners who faced with a large bill for failed seals/bearings, remove the drive shafts completely thus rendering the vehicle a two wheel drive vehicle. In this instance, the selling garage admitted they had bought the car from an auction house and failed to check the vehicle completely before selling. To their credit, without fuss, they took the vehicle back and spent a considerable amount of money returning it to 4x4 status.

I foresee further issues down the line with the recent developments in the clarification of the law on Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF's). I wonder how many motor traders/private buyers have bought cars at auction that have had their DPF's removed and then sold them on? If I were buying a second hand diesel car now for instance, I would be asking for written confirmation as part of the deal that the vehicle (if a recent model, 2009 on), still had the DPF intact. No good 12 months down the line after purchase, putting the car through an MOT and it being failed for no DPF to then go back to the garage complaining because it will be one word against another.

Anyway, having digressed a little, I hope the whole issue is sorted sooner rather than later and that if necessary, Trading Standards take whatever action is appropriate should a resolution not be forthcoming.

 

[jrkitching]

It'll be interesting to hear the outcome of what the garage says. They could well have been duped themselves, however, they must make every effort to ensure a car is legit and clearly as others have already said and as is laid down in law, a car that has previously been written off and repaired, the fact must be made known to the buyer prior to parting with any money.

The problem is that cars are only recorded by HPI as 'written off' if an insurance company informs them that a claim has been settled on a total loss basis.

If the car was damaged but sold on as unrecorded salvage, then another garage could repair the car and sell it on without any legal obligation to disclose what they had done. The car's HPI record will be clear and there is no way that someone subsequently purchasing the car would ever know.

Google 'unrecorded salvage' and you'll find hundreds, if not thousands, of damaged cars for sale. A few will be broken for parts, but most will be bought, repaired and sold on without the buyer being any the wiser.

The law doesn't distinguish between an unrecorded car sold with a split bumper and an unrecorded car sold with major accident damage.

It's a massive loophole. AIUI, the only recourse a subsequent buyer has in this situation is if the repairs were not done to at least a roadworthy standard, or if they were so badly done that the car is not fit for purpose.

Ellie's car was sold with a clear HPI certificate from the selling dealer. There's no reason to suppose the certificate isn't genuine, so either there has been a major failure in the system (in which case the selling dealer may be able to claim compensation from HPI), or the car was never declared a total loss by an insurance company.

So the big question I have now is how do Fiat know it was damaged beyond economic repair, if it has never been declared a total loss?

I could speculate about what might have happened (and it won't be long before someone else does exactly that), but Ellie needs hard facts to take this forward. She is the loser right now, and it certainy isn't her fault.

Ellie, the HPI certificate shows the car as only having one registered former keeper. I'd suggest you put as much effort as you can into finding out who that former keeper was. I'm sure they have a story to tell.

 

[jrkitching]

This car was sold unrecorded at auction today. It's a '13 plate Polo, likely worth about £10k-£11k in good order, and made about £4.5k. It will likely be repaired and sold on without the new owner being aware of its history. It will show as clean to anyone doing an HPI check.

Do you think this practice is right, fair or reasonable?

Comments please.

(Note: This isn't intended to be a statement about this specific car or auction company. I just picked it at random from the internet to illustrate the kind of thing which goes on in the trade on a regular basis.)