Engine mount snapped in my Fiat 500 2011 Lounge

[frupi]

Personally, I wouldn't accept any deal which involves taking the car back under any circumstances. The car has been classified as a Cat D write off and Ellie would be under obligation to inform her insurer at renewal time that this is the case as apparently, some insurers might refuse to insure the vehicle. As it stands, if Ellie did decide to keep the vehicle, it'll likely be worth peanuts anyway. Ok, so legally, you may well not have to tell a private buyer that the vehicle is a Cat D write off, but morally, especially after what has happened, you'd probably feel like crap if you sold it on and the person wasn't aware of the history. I would still love to know exactly what sort of accident this vehicle has been involved in, but I guess none of us are ever going to find out.

If you are willing Ellie, once this has been resolved satisfactorily and should you decide to get shot of the car permanently, perhaps you could post the registration number of the vehicle on this forum so everyone knows to avoid it in the future if it makes it back out onto the streets again. Then, if any unsuspecting buyer does do some thorough checking and plugs in the registration mark into a search engine, it should come up and lead them to this thread.

 

[jrkitching]

The car has been classified as a Cat D write off

As far as I am aware, it hasn't - as yet there is no evidence that this car was ever recorded on the MIAFTR database. If it's not recorded, then it's not a Cat D car, it's just an accident damaged repaired one.

Fiat saying that the accident damage corresponds to what an insurance assessor would have classified as Cat D does not in itself make it a Cat D writeoff - and therein lies the crux of Ellie's problem.

As yet, I'm not aware of any evidence that would have any legal status that the car was written off.

If it were, then Ellie would have a cast-iron case against the selling dealer - so if it turns out to be a clerical error and the car is subsequently put onto the MIAFTR register, I'd expect a very quick offer of settlement - and Fleet Car Sales may then themselves have a claim against HPI.

 

[frupi]

Thank you John, I have spoken with Fiat asking for more information on the right off as at the moment we've only got proof as a written letter from Fiat head office, which I'm assured is enough proof, however having asked a few more questions today I found out that the car was a category D write off, this was not written off by insurance, which is why it is not coming up on HPI checks. This is something that has been handled internally at Fiat UK, therefore to my understanding I believe the car was a lease / finance, it was deemed a category D after the accident so the finance company ("FGA Capital UK Ltd, offering finance options for vehicles of the brands belonging to Fiat Group Automobiles.") paid off Fiat and sold the car to salvage (the last bit I was told by head office).

Sorry, I was under the assumption from the quoted post that the status had already been established.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Personally, I wouldn't accept any deal which involves taking the car back under any circumstances. The car has been classified as a Cat D write off and Ellie would be under obligation to inform her insurer at renewal time that this is the case as apparently, some insurers might refuse to insure the vehicle.

Only if it states in her docs that she need to, or that the vehicle hasn't been subjected to a total loss.

If this isn't stated, or she isn't asked, then she's under no obligation to be forthcoming with this information

 

[frupi]

Only if it states in her docs that she need to, or that the vehicle hasn't been subjected to a total loss.

If this isn't stated, or she isn't asked, then she's under no obligation to be forthcoming with this information

I suspect, if anyone were to actually read the small print of their insurance documents (and to be honest, truthfully, how many people do?) you'd probably find that most insurers will ask the question, "Are you aware or to your knowledge, has the car ever been classified as a 'write off'" or words similar.

There's no argument, this whole saga is a total mess. In the circumstances described throughout, I still wouldn't accept the car back anyway because there seems to be little or no information about exactly what sort of accident the car has been involved in. I personally would have zero confidence in the car.

 

[jrkitching]

I suspect, if anyone were to actually read the small print of their insurance documents (and to be honest, truthfully, how many people do?) you'd probably find that most insurers will ask the question, "Are you aware or to your knowledge, has the car ever been classified as a 'write off'" or words similar.

It hasn't, which is the crux of the matter - if it had, then Ellie would have a simple misrep claim against the seller.

IMO Fiat saying in a letter that they've written the car off means nothing (in law) if it hasn't been properly categorised by an ABI accredited inspector and recorded on the MIAFTR.

The question folks should perhaps be asking is why Fiat/FGA Capital are selling cars like this as unrecorded salvage (unless of course this turns out to be a clerical error). The ABI code of practice makes it clear that self-insured fleet operators should follow the same procedures in respect of vehicles sold for salvage as an insurer. There's no legal obligation on them to abide by the ABI COP, but for a major car manufacturer not to do so does, in my opinion, raise some serious questions.

I still think this will get fudged, settled & quietly swept under the table - which is good news for Ellie, but will do nothing to help others who might fall into a similar trap in the future.

There's no argument, this whole saga is a total mess.

:yeahthat:

What's good is that everyone is rallying round to help & support Ellie - the certainty in all of this is that she's the innocent victim.

Thanks to everyone who's posting for keeping this constructive.

 

[frupi]

Agree with your last point entirely jrk, this thread in itself, has to be the most interesting ever raised on this forum. It is a valuable lesson for all. Sadly some will still get caught out even making all the correct checks.

At the end of the day, whatever happens with Ellie's car, it should be subject to a full independent professional inspection and accredited paperwork sold on with the vehicle detailing everything that has happened to it. I guess that will only happen if all of the organisations play ball and provide the necessary information.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I suspect, if anyone were to actually read the small print of their insurance documents (and to be honest, truthfully, how many people do?) you'd probably find that most insurers will ask the question, "Are you aware or to your knowledge, has the car ever been classified as a 'write off'" or words similar.

As someone who reads ALL of the small print, it isn't something my current, or previous insurers have ever had stipulated, its just a case of reading all of the documentation, as you should anyway, and checking. You never have to give information to an insurance company unless asked, this became the case recently with a change in regulations regarding disclosure of information / data to an insurance company, and the ownus now being on them to specifically ask.

 

[Murano16v]

What are the legal requirements concerning the registration document - i.e what would happen between Fiat deciding it's a write off last September, Fiat Finance paying them off, the car then sold for salvage, some dodgy repairer buying it, the dealer buying it and finally in March, Ellie buying the car. How much of this has to be recorded by the DVLA. The dodgy service history could only have come from the repairer or the dealer.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

What are the legal requirements concerning the registration document - i.e what would happen between Fiat deciding it's a write off last September, Fiat Finance paying them off, the car then sold for salvage, some dodgy repairer buying it, the dealer buying it and finally in March, Ellie buying the car. How much of this has to be recorded by the DVLA. The dodgy service history could only have come from the repairer or the dealer.

Nothing has to be recorded by DVLA, only has to be shown on V5C if an insurance write off which requires a VIC - which a CAT-D write off doesn't, so this wouldn't show.

 

[Murano16v]

Nothing has to be recorded by DVLA, only has to be shown on V5C if an insurance write off which requires a VIC - which a CAT-D write off doesn't, so this wouldn't show.

Yes, but I assume Fiat would want to declare that from September last year they were no longer the registered keeper of the vehicle.

 

[jrkitching]

Yes, but I assume Fiat would want to declare that from September last year they were no longer the registered keeper of the vehicle.

Presumably they'd fill in the V5C/3 (the yellow slip) with the name of the trader who bought it & send it to DVLA, who'll mark the car as being "in trade". DVLA won't have recorded that the vehicle had been damaged.

DVLA will have a paper trail showing any changes in ownership; whether they'd release this to Ellie is anyone's guess.

All motor traders and repairers are legally obliged to keep proper records; it can't just have disappeared for six months.

I don't know where Fleet Car Sales bought it, or what they paid, but I'm thinking they must have known that a decent TA 500 less than 3yrs old isn't going to be sold cheaply at some low level auction. Ellie may not have had the technical knowledge or experience to realise what she was buying, but I don't believe Fleet Car Sales can plead the same defence. It may not be unlawful to sell unrecorded repaired cars, but a motor trader does have a duty of care not to buy and sell on vehicles which are so badly put back together as to be a load of carp.

And it certainly is unlawful to misrepresent the service history of a vehicle, even if it is an innocent misrepresentation. Once again, I'd argue a motor trader has a duty of care to take reasonable steps to verify the integrity of the documentation.

Ellie, thank you for keeping us all posted on what's been happening. I very much hope you will have some better news to share with us soon.

 

[EllieBoxall]

I have had some more information, but holding onto it for the moment as not sure who's eyes have viewed this forum...

Still in limbo though really, and from what I've read over the last few days (John) JRK basically has this situation down to a 'T'!

Oh and one last point, I agree about this post being very helpful and constructive, I've come so far in my quest with every bodies input!!!!

Hopefully we're reaching a resolution very quickly...

Thanks everyone!

 

[jrkitching]

Hopefully we're reaching a resolution very quickly...

Fingers crossed for you.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

I have had some more information, but holding onto it for the moment as not sure who's eyes have viewed this forum...

THAT is a very sensible action!

Never fire your big guns until you have to.

This is an adversarial scenario, and history will confirm, sadly, that premature disclosure has lost many a case.


Stillfishing.

 

[GrandeGuy]

I have had some more information, but holding onto it for the moment as not sure who's eyes have viewed this forum...

Does that mean Fiat/Dealers realise the power of the forum

 

[ahmett]

You know guys i have a question here.
If Ellie, before buying the car, had driven to a local mechanic to get the car checked, would they have been to able to see the botched repair?

In Greece, generally people take cars to an independent mechanic they trust to check the car thoroughly before going ahead with the purchase.

Basically, no trust, which after reading this, i guess would be the best course of action to get a car checked before purchase?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

You know guys i have a question here.
If Ellie, before buying the car, had driven to a local mechanic to get the car checked, would they have been to able to see the botched repair?

If they knew what they were looking at then yes. In the UK you can get organisations like the AA / RAC to do comprehensive checked like this for about £150ish.

 

[jrkitching]

Any more news, Ellie?

We are all rooting for you here and hope you're able to find a solution soon.

 

[EllieBoxall]

Any more news, Ellie?

We are all rooting for you here and hope you're able to find a solution soon.

Hello, I think I'm making progress, I've got a meeting with them on Saturday so fingers crossed I get the resolution I'm hoping for. Will let you all know. Thank you ))