Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[deejays]

@deejays @jansla at last an alternative gold sample. I have published simular in guides and all over this thread as engine A. If you could add the csv files i would appreciate it. I use semi auto graphing for comparisons and using real numbers the means and other statistics can be applied more accurately than trying to read a max value from a screen. A typical example is reading the lpegr cooler mean value but only if engine has exceeded 80C. The additional advantage of not using autoranging as MES ie a constant Y axis for a particular application is ease of comparison and less confussion for those not regularly reading graphs.

tHE number od pids able to be measured ie 22 to 28 varies on the PIDs and Dongle BT able to do less than USB. this is basicaly why Alfaobd resitricts you to 16 pids (quite restrictive). The Template I use has been tweeked over the years to hone in this specific problem and to see what systems are working and what not including regen. eg i only check the actual values of the egr valves because this indicates they are working, if outside normal parameters then you can drill down and look at more specific issues.

Hi @theoneandonly , I understand why you have the need to manipulate the MES data within spreadsheets because of the statistical purpose of what you are doing across many vehicles. And it is an excellent tool for the outcome that you have sort after and achieved. Well done, by the way. But for the average home mechanic just trying to come to terms with the fault they are trying to diagnose, the graphs within MES are really all that is needed for diagnosis, particularly if they have a reference library that can be used for a direct comparison without any further transferring and manipulation of data. What you are doing is admirable and helping many owners with their issue, but at the same time I feel we all need a bit of encouragement to look at the data within MES and try and diagnose the fault ourselves. It appears that @jansla may have been suffering from this fault for some considerable time and quickly discovering the size of the holes in the wallet. @jansla isn’t so much worried about statistics – just the need to identify and fix the issue without some workshop firing the parts canon.

I understand the basis of your templates, but I have suggested that @jansla use my specific template in this circumstance.

Regarding the maximum number of logged parameters. I am using MES 5.3R1. I have both wired and wireless interfaces – Vgate vLinker FS USB and MS. Equally capable regarding number of parameters that can be logged in MES. Whilst in the (Engine) Parameters Tab if all parameters are selected, then all can be measured - the big downside being the refresh time is around 5 seconds for each individual parameter. However, once all parameters are selected, and then the Graph Tab is selected, then this is where the limit applies (and for good reason – access/refresh time). Depending on which parameters are selected, the displayed parameters may be less than the maximum of 26 whilst actively recording, however once the recording is stopped, the automatically saved CSV file will contain up to the maximum of 26 parameters. At least this is my experience and is consistent no matter which interface I use or which module or parameters I choose. Also, in the Graph Tab, individual refresh times can be applied according to required priority of individual parameter importance.

This limit of 26 parameters does not appear to be limited by the selected interface, but by MES itself, and for good reason I would say and that is parameter refresh time. To demonstrate this, if you open MES in Simulate mode (standalone – no interfaces connected), and then select the engine and select “all” in Parameters, and then select the Graph Tab, you will notice the maximum limit of 26 is applied to the first 26 parameters from the top of the list.

 

[theoneandonly]

@deejays i can totaly agrree MES works on refresh time having seen it limetted to 22 (probably related the total refresh time). I suspect the Vlinker hardware is conciderably different to previous BT offerings as it reccommended for proxi alignment (thus quicker and more secure ). The older stuff does affect the number of pids. I have also aquired a new Vgate Plus dongle that is much quicker than previous hardware (I have not yet tried to totaly stretch capabilities ).

As to Standard gold examples for various test eg what happens when i press the throttle pedal
here are some examples

General Sensor Info. MES data

This data is specificaly from a 2017 Ducato but at least indicates what may be applicible to others.

www.fiatforum.com

I would still like your raw data to play with.
I am still in the position, when will it fail and what is difference between v28 and V32. I notice you do not have injector correction in your list. (any particular reason other than no room).
Have you noticed any precursor indication to a cooler blocking. or impact on regeneration distance. How consistant is yours?

Sorry for the disjointed ramblings.

 

[Fredastaire]

@theoneandonly you mention what happens with the throttle.
I note the LP EGR switches off when you lift your foot off the pedal.
I'm inquisitive as to whether there is a simple switch inside the pedal module. Could there be a simple mod to deactivate this switch and thereby turn the EGRs inactive?

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly you mention what happens with the throttle.
I note the LP EGR switches off when you lift your foot off the pedal.
I'm inquisitive as to whether there is a simple switch inside the pedal module. Could there be a simple mod to deactivate this switch and thereby turn the EGRs inactive?

There are two potentiometers in the module the ecu takes the average of the 2 if they are moving in the same direction Volts wise, thus always having one to use if tother obviosly not following ie 0 then error should occur but not limp mode. Thus no simple method to deactivate unless just point the egr to zero volts as long as the injectors get thier signal.

 

[deejays]

@deejays i can totaly agrree MES works on refresh time having seen it limetted to 22 (probably related the total refresh time). I suspect the Vlinker hardware is conciderably different to previous BT offerings as it reccommended for proxi alignment (thus quicker and more secure ). The older stuff does affect the number of pids. I have also aquired a new Vgate Plus dongle that is much quicker than previous hardware (I have not yet tried to totaly stretch capabilities ).

As to Standard gold examples for various test eg what happens when i press the throttle pedal
here are some examples

General Sensor Info. MES data

This data is specificaly from a 2017 Ducato but at least indicates what may be applicible to others.

www.fiatforum.com

I would still like your raw data to play with.
I am still in the position, when will it fail and what is difference between v28 and V32. I notice you do not have injector correction in your list. (any particular reason other than no room).
Have you noticed any precursor indication to a cooler blocking. or impact on regeneration distance. How consistant is yours?

Sorry for the disjointed ramblings.

@theoneandonly , regarding the template for @jansla , yes it is packed (full) with critical parameters to hopefully find the main fault quickly. There is no room for anything else. If the fault is discovered, then a secondary set of parameters to possibly find a cause - and that would definitely include Injector Correction. At this point for @jansla I think it is more important to find what the main crippling issue is first, then once that is discovered (and perhaps sorted) go looking for the cause - which might include the injectors. At the very least the sooty exhaust indicates a failed DPF.
So far my vehicle is running fine, no issues noted. Raw data - how much do you want? Currently there are 7 (seven) CSV raw data files of my engine on this thread: 1 very recent on P85, 2 on P53, 3 on P55, and 1 on P56. Let me know if you need more and what template..

 

[deejays]

@theoneandonly you mention what happens with the throttle.
I note the LP EGR switches off when you lift your foot off the pedal.
I'm inquisitive as to whether there is a simple switch inside the pedal module. Could there be a simple mod to deactivate this switch and thereby turn the EGRs inactive?

@Fredastaire , I wish it was only that simple. Multiple inputs and sensors for multiple outputs and actuators I am afraid. Case in point being one of @jansla ‘s files where the LPEGR valve initially behaves as you and I have observed, but near the end of the run just prior to limp mode the LPEGR valve is fully open with gas pedal closed (so was the HPEGR valve but I have not included it to keep the graph legible). I have included the Manifold temp as I suspect the EGR valves are open to get the falling Manifold temp back up to the desired band of around 60C – but there are other sensors driving as well – such as exhaust gas temp and O2 sensors. I have divided the full run into two graphs for clarity.

 

[jansla]

Dear friends, This is a very interesting discussion, I have to admit. Myself not being any kind of technician, mechanic, engineer either, it is very rewarding to read your opinions. At the same time I’m grateful for your commitment and willingness to help solve the problem. The problem is certainly complex and multifactorial. Most problem solving strategies should begin with identifying the faults and reasons. In my profession there is some problem solving involved so I think identifying the problem before treating it - should be justified. Up till now faults came on the screen but there were no clear signs of what kind of issue it really was. In my case, well my car’s case all parameters that are available look rather good, besides discrepancy between actual boost and desired boost pressure. The low temperature of LPEGR is not enough to explain limp mode. The system was checked by “Fiat-not-so-Professional” as I nowadays call them, and no leaks were identified. I have bought a smoke machine with a pressure function and tried it myself but could not identify any leaks. I have shown the sooty exhaust to “Fiat-not-so-Professional” and their comment was: “This is a diesel engine so nothing strange that there is some soot coming out of this.” Hmm… I don't know how clean it should be (I have been driving petrol cars all my life) but It happened that I owe another diesel car at the moment, 10 years old, 3 liter 6 cylinder diesel engine and both exhaust pipes are literally clean in the inside, so it is not impossible that a diesel engine can be clean, but it can be brand specific (maybe).


Regarding LPEGR temperature - it may go up to over 100gradesC as can be seen in attached files.


Regarding injectors, I've recorded some data several times before, and there were only small corrections, so I think they are doing quite well, but of course I’ll recheck them.





Anyway something moved today, thus some update: Fiat garage (the one that changed some parts last year - there are only two Fiat garages in my little town - not too much choice) called and had possibility to do some check for my faults, so my van was taken to the garage this morning for some more tests and diagnose. Fingers crossed…

 

[Fredastaire]

@jansla I do hope your garage will conclude with a known fault and it's repair items.
.
For me it's quite simple.

Sooty exhaust gives sooty LP EGR cooler and sooner or later it will begin to block.
.
Blocked cooler identified by the Fiat software seeing low temperature will open the LP EGR servo motor some more and more....
.
As the servo motor opens at halfway point it begins to close the butterfly from the air filter.
.
Closed butterfly means no fresh air, blocked cooler means no recirculating exhaust.
.
No fresh air; no recirc means engine is strangled and throws limp mode.
.
Your dealer mechanic needs to know and understand this, he's probably never seen a twin egr vehicle before.
.
@theoneandonly will quickly spot the problem given a CSV file of twenty to thirty minutes run time.
Sorry not to have any better news....

 

[MSjoberg]

I have shown the sooty exhaust to “Fiat-not-so-Professional” and their comment was: “This is a diesel engine so nothing strange that there is some soot coming out of this.” Hmm… I don't know how clean it should be

Hej,

In the FCA Service News 10 023.19 shared in this thread (and perhaps in Downloads section also) there is a good illustration of normal vs abnormal result from the ”white cloth test”. See pages 4-5.

 

[theoneandonly]

The low temperature of LPEGR is not enough to explain limp mode. The system was checked by “Fiat-not-so-Professional” as I nowadays call them, and no leaks were identified. I have bought a smoke machine with a pressure function and tried it myself but could not identify any leaks. I have shown the sooty exhaust to “Fiat-not-so-Professional” and their comment was: “This is a diesel engine so nothing strange that there is some soot coming out of this.” Hmm… I don't know how clean it should be (I have been driving petrol cars all my life) but It happened that I owe another diesel car at the moment, 10 years old, 3 liter 6 cylinder diesel engine and both exhaust pipes are literally clean in the inside, so it is not impossible that a diesel engine can be clean, but it can be brand specific (maybe).


Regarding LPEGR temperature - it may go up to over 100gradesC as can be seen in attached files.


Regarding injectors, I've recorded some data several times before, and there were only small corrections, so I think they are doing quite well, but of course I’ll recheck them.





Anyway something moved today, thus some update: Fiat garage (the one that changed some parts last year - there are only two Fiat garages in my little town - not too much choice) called and had possibility to do some check for my faults, so my van was taken to the garage this morning for some more tests and diagnose. Fingers crossed…

I have shown the sooty exhaust to xxx We know a good euro 6 has a squeeky clean exhaust soot is a no no first step to a cracked dpf diagnosis
Regarding LPEGR temperature - it may go up to over 100gradesC as can be seen in attached files.
this is he facinating one that normaly gives a definative blocked Cooler diagnosis
aditional proof is a P0401 freeze frame data that all blocked engines give a typical 25% demand to actual air flow%

The valve openning is typical of the blocked lpegr cooler ie swinging from max to min openning (nothing in the 2-3 region)
The temperature however, is typical of of a perfectly running engine

These 2 are good examples showing controlled valve movement and slightly higher temperatures but yours are no way in the danger zone. Maybe moving there.

The descrepancy is larger than seen in a typical blocked cooler.

The HP egr valve is working as expected.
I have had limmited lime looking at this but one observation the results are not as crystal clear as all others ive looked at. One thing that will be interesting to look at will be the AFR air to fuel ratio.

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly , regarding the template for @jansla , yes it is packed (full) with critical parameters to hopefully find the main fault quickly. There is no room for anything else. If the fault is discovered, then a secondary set of parameters to possibly find a cause - and that would definitely include Injector Correction. At this point for @jansla I think it is more important to find what the main crippling issue is first, then once that is discovered (and perhaps sorted) go looking for the cause - which might include the injectors. At the very least the sooty exhaust indicates a failed DPF.
So far my vehicle is running fine, no issues noted. Raw data - how much do you want? Currently there are 7 (seven) CSV raw data files of my engine on this thread: 1 very recent on P85, 2 on P53, 3 on P55, and 1 on P56. Let me know if you need more and what template..

Found the older stuff have you got any with your template?

 

[deejays]

Found the older stuff have you got any with your template?

Already posted on last page - P85

 

[deejays]

Dear friends, This is a very interesting discussion, I have to admit. Myself not being any kind of technician, mechanic, engineer either, it is very rewarding to read your opinions. At the same time I’m grateful for your commitment and willingness to help solve the problem. The problem is certainly complex and multifactorial. Most problem solving strategies should begin with identifying the faults and reasons. In my profession there is some problem solving involved so I think identifying the problem before treating it - should be justified. Up till now faults came on the screen but there were no clear signs of what kind of issue it really was. In my case, well my car’s case all parameters that are available look rather good, besides discrepancy between actual boost and desired boost pressure. The low temperature of LPEGR is not enough to explain limp mode. The system was checked by “Fiat-not-so-Professional” as I nowadays call them, and no leaks were identified. I have bought a smoke machine with a pressure function and tried it myself but could not identify any leaks. I have shown the sooty exhaust to “Fiat-not-so-Professional” and their comment was: “This is a diesel engine so nothing strange that there is some soot coming out of this.” Hmm… I don't know how clean it should be (I have been driving petrol cars all my life) but It happened that I owe another diesel car at the moment, 10 years old, 3 liter 6 cylinder diesel engine and both exhaust pipes are literally clean in the inside, so it is not impossible that a diesel engine can be clean, but it can be brand specific (maybe).


Regarding LPEGR temperature - it may go up to over 100gradesC as can be seen in attached files.


Regarding injectors, I've recorded some data several times before, and there were only small corrections, so I think they are doing quite well, but of course I’ll recheck them.





Anyway something moved today, thus some update: Fiat garage (the one that changed some parts last year - there are only two Fiat garages in my little town - not too much choice) called and had possibility to do some check for my faults, so my van was taken to the garage this morning for some more tests and diagnose. Fingers crossed…

Hi @jansla , @theoneandonly , @Fredastaire , "The problem is certainly complex and multifactorial" - perhaps, but it could also just be a broken DPF resulting in an almost completely blocked LPEGR cooler. One has to be careful of observing just one parameter in isolation - such as LPEGR temperature. Yes, it may achieve high temperature as expected, but at what flow rate? That is not directly measured, but an indication that the flow rate is not as high as it should be is the LPEGR valve is near full open, and the inlet manifold temperature is low and the DPF temp is really high; in one of your latest files. Also, in combination there is not the required boost - and that is likely because the LPEGR valve is shutting off the required airflow availability from the air filter. If the cooler is blocked and not able to supply high enough volume of gas, and the LPEGR is nearly full open, shutting down fresh air from the air filter, then there is no gas for the turbo to boost. Hopefully your garage can fix it for you, if not I think it would be to your advantage to run the template I provided and have a very good look at it. Also keep in mind that a blocking cooler will no longer cool as effectively as a clear one due to the insulating effect of the carbon build-up on the cooling fins, so even with very low gas flow rates due to a blocking cooler, the cooler will not effectively drop the temperature - so you can observe high LPEGR temperatures at abnormally low flow rates. (Late edit: I note that theoneandonly has analysed the same portion of the identical CSV file - it threw me at first because it looked almost identical but has a different file name - then the penny dropped - a simple typo on transferring data from MES to spreadsheet - CSV file name is 250507, which due to typo in spreadsheet copy is shown as 250407).

 

[Jiwawa]

Does anyone have a contact email for Terence Donnelly, Executive Chairman of Donnelly Group, NI? That's my Fiat Professional group.

 

[Fredastaire]

Two side comments.
There might be an error creeping in if any sensor is out of its intended range, one example, is the LP EGR temp sensor giving correct values?
Second what's the result if the intercooler is blocking with oil/ soot combination? It's relative straightforward to go underneath and after removing the clip, pulling the hose elbow off to take a look. When I had the cambelt changed, the mechanic spotted mine and reported it. (Flushed out with plenty of petrol)

 

[Dexron]

As Fredasteire says, I also need to know what would happen if the lpegr temperature sensor showed an incorrect value, for my idea of overriding the refrigerator and taking a clean air intake from the air filter.

 

[Jiwawa]

Thanks for the clarification @theoneandonly, the intake manifold is on the list.

Attached is the estimate (pretty shocking!)
View attachment 465890

The fellow from Fiat Customer Care tells me his technicians say ALL of the parts on that estimate are required when following Service News 10.023.19 and should all have been replaced at the 1st repair. That is certainly not my reading of what's required and I don't think I've come across anyone else saying they've had it done or recommended to be done.

 

[theoneandonly]

The fellow from Fiat Customer Care tells me his technicians say ALL of the parts on that estimate are required when following Service News 10.023.19 and should all have been replaced at the 1st repair. That is certainly not my reading of what's required and I don't think I've come across anyone else saying they've had it done or recommended to be done.

Jiwawa yours is the most comprehensive list ive seen and only one other mention of the inlet port, and that was from someone on his second time and the dealer said they should have changed it first time around. I dont know his current position.

 

[theoneandonly]

@jansla i assumed it was @deejays template you used (not mine) and i was expecting a more in depth analysis and hoping to learn his methodology by example on iffy data. Currently unable to check data.
For interest @deejays i Have noticed that blocked cooler diagnoses have had differing initial error codes and can be more complex (ps not all problems are discussed here even though i try to move people here). Thus i am interested in how you would go about finding if not solving a problem by PM if you preffer.

 

[deejays]

@jansla i assumed it was @deejays template you used (not mine) and i was expecting a more in depth analysis and hoping to learn his methodology by example on iffy data. Currently unable to check data.
For interest @deejays i Have noticed that blocked cooler diagnoses have had differing initial error codes and can be more complex (ps not all problems are discussed here even though i try to move people here). Thus i am interested in how you would go about finding if not solving a problem by PM if you preffer.

@theoneandonly The CSV files so far provided by @jansla are of jansla's own choice of parameters and pre-date my suggested parameter template. The parameter list for my suggested template is on P85 of this thread and is clearly different to any CSV files that jansla has posted thus far. Jansla has also stated earlier that due to work commitments the earliest that the template could be ran is this coming Friday. Considering the vehicle is now at a garage, that may not even eventuate. My approach and methodology can also be found in the same post on P85. I have followed up your request for a PM.