Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[theoneandonly]

Good work interesting stuff. is

63565515-44AD-442F-94E8-674CA7D93010.jpeg​

the tea strainer before cleaning.

So far all I’ve been told (by a Fiat Professional workshop (being checked by Fiat Tech in Italy) is that the problem is caused by “the injectors overfuelling”, I’m waiting for an explanation as to why they’ve done this and therefore the solution to stop them doing it.

It would be great if someone here can solve this but I suspect unless/until Fiat come up with a solution (software update?) the problems will continue - but what do I know?!

A fuelling problem : Have the injectors been checked/replaced are the correct injector numbers logged in the ecu (or even the Rail pressure sensor replaced without logging).
i suspect these wouldn't be the cause of the number of problems reported, unless not done at the factory like fitting wrong MAP filter (known problem). A couple more straws to clutch at (sorry to the non english speakers).
Like @kangexpress i would like to see some other data on LPEPG Positional and temperature data to see if there is a significant difference between my v28 and v32. I am now concidering not updating until more info jumps out.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Good work interesting stuff. is

63565515-44AD-442F-94E8-674CA7D93010.jpeg​

the tea strainer before cleaning.

A fuelling problem : Have the injectors been checked/replaced are the correct injector numbers logged in the ecu (or even the Rail pressure sensor replaced without logging).
i suspect these wouldn't be the cause of the number of problems reported, unless not done at the factory like fitting wrong MAP filter (known problem). A couple more straws to clutch at (sorry to the non english speakers).
Like @kangexpress i would like to see some other data on LPEPG Positional and temperature data to see if there is a significant difference between my v28 and v32. I am now concidering not updating until more info jumps out.

My software’s never been updated, the faults occurred at 12.7k miles so all components as good as new.
The problem’s clearly well-known to Fiat otherwise why issue the service bulletin (10.023.19)?
Could be poor/faulty parts of course but again why the service bulletin (recommending software upgrade to v32)?
Sorry to just ask questions without proposing answers…

 

[kangexpress]

Here are my injector readings.
First stage 2000rpm.
2nd idling.

Any comments?

 

[theoneandonly]

Here are my injector readings.
First stage 2000rpm.
2nd idling.

Any comments?

1st total .6 2nd total.02 within spec

 

[kangexpress]

Very skiled mechanic needed 1,5 hours to take of the bridge and the DPF, and another 2,5 hours to take off the LPEGR cooler and LPEGR. It took another 2 hours to clean everyting. You do not need to take the engine out you can do it from the back side of the engine, but need to take off the bridge, exhaust system, some pipes from turbo……
I spoke today with the DPF specialist. In the shop he had DPF from Land Rover (maybe it was Range) with same problems with returning gases from behind DPF, Volvo XC70 has similar problems. The quality of DPF ,material in general is very verry very bad. His statement is: if there is any sooth behind DPF then DPF is broken. So the main question is what is causing the destruction of DPF in Fiat Ducato. All troubles with soooth are coming from broken DPF. What if it is just bad material quality as it is the case with VOLVO XC70? I will have some pictures of the DPF tommorow (hope that they will take them during repair) and will post them. I also had an idea what to change next, i did it and today when driving to mechanic i did not get the p0401 code, i have to test it further….

Let's assume the DPF is already broken.

Why than not just plug off the EGR and drive with EGR unplugged?

I know that the MIL will come on with code that EGR position is not responding.
But no limp mode and no lost of boost pressure.
You can drive the van at least like normal.

 

[theoneandonly]

My software’s never been updated, the faults occurred at 12.7k miles so all components as good as new.
The problem’s clearly well-known to Fiat otherwise why issue the service bulletin (10.023.19)?sitcoms opinions are different betwee
Could be poor/faulty parts of course but again why the service bulletin (recommending software upgrade to v32)?
Sorry to just ask questions without proposing answers…

Do you know the version of software (1st page on mes)
Have you ever run specific diagnostics with mes and got csv or log files?

We have info on lpegr positions between v24 28 32 change from approx 2mm 3-4 to 4-5

 

[BobSlo]

That is also possible, but the software change is needed as well. Problem is that you will not pass technical….
The best would be to just get rid of LPEGR and leave the rest as it is. I think that in this case the engine would be EURO5 and that is not so bad. In that case the DPF could stay in as it is, regenerations are done and smoke is not to bad, some soooth will pass the DPF but will not be returned to the engine.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Do you know the version of software (1st page on mes)
Have you ever run specific diagnostics with mes and got csv or log files?

We have info on lpegr positions between v24 28 32 change from approx 2mm 3-4 to 4-5

As my van’s been in the workshop for over 2 months I can’t interrogate the system, I’ve asked them a number of times to give me the software info but so far without success - I’ll try again today but they’re not very helpful, maybe because they don’t like Fiat peering over their shoulders.

I’ve been assured by the Fiat garage that serviced it for the 3 years before I bought it that the software’s never been updated.

I don’t have MES but will have to get it when (if?!) I get my van back.

 

[Fredastaire]

My thought is that we need to disable the butterfly throttle that is inside the casing of the LP EGR. Problem might be that there is a feedback position sensor.
One thought was to buy a second hand LP EGR and bolt it inside the engine bay such that the ecu can see a motor operating with feedback position.(ie move the multiplug over).
Any ideas anybody?

 

[theoneandonly]

My thought is that we need to disable the butterfly throttle that is inside the casing of the LP EGR. Problem might be that there is a feedback position sensor.
One thought was to buy a second hand LP EGR and bolt it inside the engine bay such that the ecu can see a motor operating with feedback position.(ie move the multiplug over).
Any ideas anybody?

If the disconnected eger effectively acts as a blanking plate as indicated by @kangexpress then the only concern is reading an error code and setting a mil. Apart from the positional feedback the only sensor (?) In that area is a temperature sensor. Currently we only have data from 2 units.
If the temperature sensor is important it may be possible to fool it ie force it to give a value we want, easy if a thermistor, a simple resistor will do.
A little work will be required to decide/determine that temperature .
Consequences to emissions??

 

[BobSlo]

Got the DPF back. It was demaged/cracked. That is the reason for sooth in the exhaust and engine. Good news is that the DPF was clean and that shows that combustion is perfect. In the pictures you can see that both sides are clean. No cleaning was performed. In the other picture you can see new core (part) in comparison with the old (sooth can be seen) and if you magnifie the picture crack becomes visible. Once again if there is black sooth in the exhaust pipe, DPF is eather cracked or melted. If there would be no LPEGR that would not be a big problem (except environment), but with gases beeing returned to engine this is a huge trouble. The last picture is new core (part)

 

[Fredastaire]

Your report clarified the origins of the soot, thank you for this.
Did your repairer say if this is often seen? Does he know the cause(s) of this?
I've just driven home 70 Miles this morning, I wiped out the exhaust with kitchen towel before and on arrival, yes there is soot but very little.
My injectors balance at tickover and at 2,000 revs shows as 0.02 cumulative. LP EGR temperature 63 deg at 4.6mm open. Last fault with Mil light was 0401 a week ago. Dpf regens at average 282 miles.
I wish I knew how to stop the LP EGR butterfly functioning. If it was easy to remove I would drill big holes in the butterfly itself to stop it strangling the engine.
Does anybody have a wiring diagram which would show the wiring harness colours to identify which wire powers the butterfly motor? A simple cut wire might show if different fault codes immediately appear.

 

[BobSlo]

Yes it happens a lot. As I said Land rovers (i checked Land not Range) Volvo XC70 and also some others. He had 3 Ducatos in last month. The cause could be bad material (Volvo), overheating, in a lot of cases forced regeneration. He said: never ever perform forced regenerations that is realy last resort and never do it more than once……..

I spoke as well with a software (tuner) specialist. If we are going to block EGR (HP, LP or both) it is necessary to change software as well. Usualy the blocking is made by blinding plate. Unfortunatly to do that we need acess to EGR and we know where it is located on Ducato.
We are putting things back in the motrohome. On the way home from the FIAT store more will be known, but this will be tomorow afternoon

 

[Fredastaire]

I don't think we need to blank (block), the LP EGR at all, just limit the strangling action of it's butterfly and let whatever cooled exhaust that can get through the tea strainer still mix with the fresh clean air from the air filter.

 

[Fredastaire]

My MES shows distance in kilometers, I see other members MED show miles. Is there a way I can change my MES data to miles?

 

[Steve928]

I don't think we need to blank (block), the LP EGR at all, just limit the strangling action of it's butterfly and let whatever cooled exhaust that can get through the tea strainer still mix with the fresh clean air from the air filter.

Looking at the pictures in BobSlo's post the 'tea strainer' looks like a spark arrester screen to prevent any sparks being drawn back into the induction circuit - presumably a possibility when the DPF is regenerating and burning soot at 600+C.

 

[Fredastaire]

Whatever its reason, it blocks up and starves the induction, then you get the fault codes...

 

[theoneandonly]

My MES shows distance in kilometers, I see other members MED show miles. Is there a way I can change my MES data to miles?

F9 settings
forth block over UNITS second column mi mph

 

[BobSlo]

Good news. I drove a couple of short routes, 2 x 40 km and one 130 km. No MIL and no pending codes.

For the cleaning procedure. It will sound funny but the best is ordinary drain cleaner (not gel). I was cleaning intercooler with diesel, Petrol, winegar and no good results. With drain cleaner, succes. But be carefull, chemical reaction can be quite intense. Have water hose prepared to start rinsing imedeately if the reaction is too strong (the temperature rises as well as some smoke is produced). Be sure to wear protective equipment. For EGR cleaning I used break cleaner, due electrical parts.

 

[Fredastaire]

@BobSlo thanks for that addition of info.
Please may I ask if you could run your engine at say 2000revs and give us the temperature reading of the LP EGR probe. This may indicate to the rest of us if you have a high temp and we have low temp that it's the cooler tea strainer that's blocked.
I also question if it's possible to do key hole surgery and spray cleaner up the cooler with a long pipe up inside, (having taken the flexi hose off), then run the engine. It's a thought I have.....
Also could you give us, again at 2k revs the dpf differential pressure and its % blocked which may help our further understanding.