Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Poachersmoon]

Its the powergate 3+ that a local tuner sells. I purchased that and a tune with egr delete. The confirmed they recently can do past 2016+ model with twin egr. You copy your current tune with the powergate then email to thek for modify. Since i was at it i got a tune from yhe 130hp to approx 160hp as well. Drives much better and holds lower gears better eith ly brief drive. I guess a switch for enable /disable could be done but would be some work. This can go back to favtory ecu setup but overwrite takes probably 20 to 30 minutes. They could probably indovidually do only 1 egr i guess.

 

[Poachersmoon]

Its based on yhe kess3 hardware tuning i believe.

Unsure on mpg i have a heavy foot anyways so wouod be hard to tell. My motoehome fully loaded with a passenger and water is 3450kg (i am 3500kg limited) and weight does affect mpg. Inthink insit at 600 tob650km to a tank of petrol if that helps. Am told it will improve with tunenso probably will offset the egr difference. Being a motorhome use the cost onnusahe isnt relevant for me at 40 to 60 uses a year

 

[BoultsG]

Its the powergate 3+ that a local tuner sells. I purchased that and a tune with egr delete. The confirmed they recently can do past 2016+ model with twin egr. You copy your current tune with the powergate then email to thek for modify. Since i was at it i got a tune from yhe 130hp to approx 160hp as well. Drives much better and holds lower gears better eith ly brief drive. I guess a switch for enable /disable could be done but would be some work. This can go back to favtory ecu setup but overwrite takes probably 20 to 30 minutes. They could probably indovidually do only 1 egr i guess.

This is interesting, where did you purchase the powergate 3+ ?. We travel full time in our MH spending our time between the UK and Europe and a few of the other surrounding non EU countries. The solution you are trying at the moment may suit us.

 

[Poachersmoon]

@BoultsG i have 3 x weekend trips up a 5hr+ return, then 6.5hr next weekend followed by a 14hr return. That should be a good test. Ley me tun those first to see how it holds up. I think ill trill make a blanking plate to block both egrs since that is accessable from the top hp one and underneath exhaust lp one. Ecu shows they are closed but i dont want anything coming through. The risk would be still fouling map sensor and Injectors.

Search powergate tuning in your area.

Just keep in mind this may only hide thenissue ornother issues hence ill do testing.

 

[aschoots]

@BoultsG i have 3 x weekend trips up a 5hr+ return, then 6.5hr next weekend followed by a 14hr return. That should be a good test. Ley me tun those first to see how it holds up. I think ill trill make a blanking plate to block both egrs since that is accessable from the top hp one and underneath exhaust lp one. Ecu shows they are closed but i dont want anything coming through. The risk would be still fouling map sensor and Injectors.

Search powergate tuning in your area.

Just keep in mind this may only hide thenissue ornother issues hence ill do testing.

Will you be doing some logging with MES to see how the engine / ecu is coping with the modified program?

 

[BoultsG]

Removing the intercooler is straightforward. Drive van up on ramps, first check the hose clips, you need these to be screwdriver type jubilees. If they are factory single use them measure the diameter and go to buy a pair from the motorist shop.
With new clips to hand, destroy the original hose clips and undo both hoses and ease away sideways. The intercooler is simply slotted up vertical in guides and held in place with tab clips, memory suggests these are say 20mm wide, one faces to the rear, the other of them sideways. You need a big screwdriver to push in to delatch as you ease the intercooler down. Memory also suggests that I undid bumper securing screws to move it out the way a fraction.
With intercooler dropped and removed it's easy to clean. Use a rubber kitchen glove over one pipe end held in place with rubber band. Fill with say one litre petrol fit a glove to the other end and slosh sideways. Leave a while to soak. Empty the murky petrol out the turbo side (to make sure any muck comes out backwards), then repeat several times. Leave to dry and if possible blow out with air line.
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Re install.
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My local garage guy warned about using anything harsher than petrol for cleaning the gills of the intercooler as they are not that strong to resist aggressive cleaners.

Last weekend I removed the intercooler and gave it a good clean out with some petrol. I had a new MAP so I replaced that as well. I drove back to my hometown ( a good 60-minute journey mainly on motorways ) and got 401/ 402 within 10 minutes and later in the day after making a short journey, I received a 238.

I have another hour or so journey to make tomorrow as @Fredastaire suggested in an earlier post I'll set up MES to monitor the HPEGR and see what results I receive.

 

[Fredastaire]

@BoultsG it's the LP EGR that needs MES monitoring with the LP EGR temperature. Yes have a look at HP however the readings will only show error if it's totally seized in the open state as the servo motor drive is not connected to the EGR flap, it just pushes it open, so if it's stuck open the servo motor would simply retract.
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The LP EGR opening is instructed by the ECU because it's looking at the manifold pressure. If the LP EGR cooler is blocked the turbo cannot suck, this means the inlet manifold pressure is too low so the ECU instructs the LP EGR to open up more, the consequence is that it opens the EGR flap fully to circa reading 4.7 at which point it has also closed off fully the clean air from the air filter. Because the MAP is reading even lower the ECU tells the HP to open up to a daft unachievable, then we get the 401 and other codes.
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So if your MES road run shows the LP EGR readings at or close to 4 7 you only have two options.
1/.remove and clean the LP EGR cooler, or replace it
2/.get the software delete, this I believe is illegal in the UK
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Do be aware that if there is a sooty exhaust pipe that your DPF is cracked, also you may find your injectors are damaged / out of tolerance

 

[theoneandonly]

from your last run

So injectors are within spec of +_2

Having replaced a number of components have you done the relearn procedure? 2ND IN LIST OF F7
(not specifically required for MAP)

AS @Fredastaire reccomends if you read the hpegr the lpergr and cooler temp are still important . Template 5 covers these and injector variation.
TO ALL this guide has been updated.

Template Examples 2 | Multiecuscan and Alfaobd Pids for X290 Ducato

Template 4 Monitoring for Regen Template 5 General Template 7 Wideband General Template 8 Specific signal monitoring Template 9 Periodic changing parameters

www.fiatforum.com

 

[BoultsG]

from your last run
View attachment 431520

So injectors are within spec of +_2

Having replaced a number of components have you done the relearn procedure? 2ND IN LIST OF F7
(not specifically required for MAP)

AS @Fredastaire reccomends if you read the hpegr the lpergr and cooler temp are still important . Template 5 covers these and injector variation.
TO ALL this guide has been updated.

Template Examples 2 | Multiecuscan and Alfaobd Pids for X290 Ducato

Template 4 Monitoring for Regen Template 5 General Template 7 Wideband General Template 8 Specific signal monitoring Template 9 Periodic changing parameters

www.fiatforum.com

Thanks @theoneandonly, at least the injectors seem to be OK. I didn't do a relearn procedure. However, I will before driving tomorrow.

We had an hour's journey to make today so taking into consideration the info from @Fredastaire I loaded T4 ( my mistake in hindsight I should have loaded T5 ) and began our journey pretty much from cold.

Within the first 5 minutes or so we received a 238 error. (File 1). After clearing we continued and within a further 5 minutes we received a 401/402 error (File 2). No errors were raised for the remainder of our journey (File 3).

Having taken a look at the data I noticed the LP EGR readings are over 4.7. Would I be correct in assuming the next course of action for me is to replace/ clean the cooler?

 

[theoneandonly]

aving taken a look at the data I noticed the LP EGR readings are over 4.7. Would I be correct in assuming the next course of action for me is to replace/ clean the cooler?

i agree the cooler is blocked and next action is to remove the cooler aand clean or replace. To clean use the most agressive method reccomended by @Fredastaire .
Your data is making me have to rethink what may be happening. it contradicts previous held ideas about coolent temperatures and differential dpf sensor values. On yours they do not fit the obvious "syndrome" values seen before, that with the on off function of the lpegr valve are evidence of the problem. When you remove the cooler please take photos before cleaning.

 

[Fredastaire]

[TTACH=full]431554[/ATTACH]I've made this sketch which I hope clarifies my take on the LP EGR in its three states. Engine off; engine normal running and finally engine in fault mode because the cooler is blocked.

 

[theGman]

[TTACH=full]431554[/ATTACH]I've made this sketch which I hope clarifies my take on the LP EGR in its three states. Engine off; engine normal running and finally engine in fault mode because the cooler is blocked.

@Fredastaire following all the posts to try to better understand the operation and importance of the values from MES. You make reference LPEGR reading 4.7. What unit is this measurement?

 

[BoultsG]

i agree the cooler is blocked and next action is to remove the cooler aand clean or replace. To clean use the most agressive method reccomended by @Fredastaire .
Your data is making me have to rethink what may be happening. it contradicts previous held ideas about coolent temperatures and differential dpf sensor values. On yours they do not fit the obvious "syndrome" values seen before, that with the on off function of the lpegr valve are evidence of the problem. When you remove the cooler please take photos before cleaning.

Thanks @theoneandonly for the confirmation, I'll be sure to take some photos of the process. One question that still puzzles me and I am sure the answer is simple. During the winter months when we are in the UK, I will run the engine for a while mainly to recharge our battery bank. Having done that a couple of times recently due to our 'changing' weather, I notice that when I go off on a journey I don't receive any error codes. The codes only trigger with a cold or cool engine. for my simple mind can someone explain?

 

[Fredastaire]

@theGman the number can only be a calibration value. I've had an LP EGR in my hands and photod it and had the cover off. Inside the drive gear of the EGR flap is an irregular internal diameter metal ring. Moulded in the plastic cap is an electrical component, I guess it's a hall effect device that measures the air gap. So as the electric servo motor drives the gear, as the air gap changes so will the electrical output to the ECU.

 

[jansla]

Some update on my P0238&P0236 I’ve posted on the 2nd of September.
One visit at authorised Fiat Proffesional workshop and they updated to ver. 032. and they didn’t bother about soot in my exhaust pipe at all. Just commented that it is no issue. I then visited another authorised Fiat Proffesional workshop for check and the conclusion was that everything is ok. Soot in exhaust pipe was just quite normal, the flow over the dpf was normal according to them. But the software update was not the remedy for my troubles. Fault codes keep coming back with engine in limp mode and all that problems.

Today I have managed to record some data with MES just when the check engine light came on. It happened not far from home so I left the codes untouched and going to ask Fiat Proffesional mechanic to look at that again. Unfortunately there are only two authorised workshops in my little town - not too much choice. Could you @theoneandonly or @Fredastaire look at my .csv file? It was 83s of the recording when the fault happened. Is there any conclusive information to be read from this file?

 

[Fredastaire]

@jansla I cannot open on my phone so I'll look with laptop tomorrow.
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My Fiat dealer did the same, changed to v32, said all was fine and sent me away....( And charged me for doing it).
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It's the same treatment we get, no matter the country..
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It's so crazy that mechanics of professional garages don't know how to sort twin EGR Ducatos...
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@theoneandonly hopefully can come back quickly.
.

 

[theoneandonly]

@jansla and @Fredastaire
was there just the 236 and 238 or have we got a P0401 as well?
The engine only got upto 55 c so not upto working temp. No cooler temp recorded.

The rapid change from fully open to fully closed is typical of the blocked cooler issue but as yet we are not upto temperature. this is just before the region where most 401s occur.
if possible a run of template 5 would give a better picture. Including the Differential dpf sensor and lpegr cooler temperature.

Template Examples 2 | Multiecuscan and Alfaobd Pids for X290 Ducato

Template 4 Monitoring for Regen Template 5 General Template 7 Wideband General Template 8 Specific signal monitoring Template 9 Periodic changing parameters

www.fiatforum.com

 

[jansla]

@theoneandonly No 401, just 238 and 236 in my case. My van is in limp mode right now so I’m uncertain if it may influence data recording. I append some more data I’ve recorded last week where lpegr cooler temperature is included

 

[theoneandonly]

File 39 OK once engine warm LPEGR cooler gets up to a sensible temperature and is controling with valve, no wild max to min only.

this is different LPEGR cooler gets up to a sensible temperature and is controling with valve, then lower temp with wild max to min

Dpf values not too bad but hoping for a regen to bring bellow 100 mbar. But clogging value about 20% (in raw data) indicate a regen not too long ago.

 

[aschoots]

As many here I have similar problems with my 2017 Twin EGR Ducato. I have the 177hp version. For me trouble started in 2021 roughly a year after buying the van, and got progressively worse. At that time the van had done around 175.000km. At first an error every morning and no more after clearing that. Later it got worse, limp mode every 50 - 100km or so, not funny. Before stumbling over this forum & thread I replaced the HP-EGR valve (no improvement), the turbo solenoid and the MAF sensor (again no improvement).

After reading about the DPF and LP-EGR circuit causing this trouble and analysing with MES early 2022 I had ECU prog v32 installed and had a new DPF installed (ouch), also had the LP-EGR cooler and the LP-EGR valve changed out by a clean used pair I bought used. This solved the problem, it was at around 180.000km.

But now, some 40.000km further, the P238, P401 and limp mode are occurring again... I have done a longer testrun with MES logging using dataset #5. After ca 5 min the P0238 and P0401 errors occured. After clearing these, in the following drive no more errors. See attached freeze frame snapshots and the log files before the error, and the longer / warm engine drive after that.
My analysis is the LP-EGR is (getting) obstructed again, an independent check is welcome...
- Temperature after LP-EGR cooler is max 100degC, average 60-65degC.
- LP-EGR valve is mainly travelling between 0 and 4.7 (but is also showing mid range values).
- The DPF dP ranges from 10-65mbar which is not bad - but doesn't say much about there being a 'crack' in the DPF or not.
- Finally I've seen that the injector correction values range up to and above 3mm3/i - outside the FIAT recommended maximum of 2mm3/i (should I consider to have them replaced?).

I have a service scheduled for November 6th, and informed the dealer I will most likely want to have my 'spare' cleaned LP-EGR cooler installed. Also I've indicated that the DPF is supposed to have 24 months guarantee (will see what the dealer says about that).

Since I also have a spare LP-EGR valve, I have the option to make and test the mod that @Fredastaire proposed earlier - to change the 'disc cam' that operates the valve in the clean air inlet such that it does not fully close / stays open.

One question I have for that is concerning the checks the ECU can (and will) do. I would expect the ECU to check that the airflow sensor reads (close to) zero when the LP-EGR valve is fully closed. That can be done by the ECU - if the air flow sensor is upstream the LP-EGR valve. My van is not at home for another week (daugther is in Spain with it). Can someone check / confirm if there is an air flow sensor upstream the valve? If so I am not sure I want to try the 'disc cam' mod as it is likely to cause other limp mode failure codes.

I am -very- interested though in the result of the HP- and LP-EGR removal ECU tune that @Poachersmoon has done. If that proves to work without errors, getting the tuning company to make a version that only disables the LP-EGR would be my choice.