Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

@theGman my guess would be that they also used the original LP EGR cooler, maybe DPF and never cleaned the intercooler.
The LP EGR cooler has the mesh filter that is the one that we talk about getting blocked; therefore there is no way engine swarf can get through.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Poachersmoon it's been done before to separate the flex pipe from the silencer/ DPF junction, I've seen a photo whereby the owner simply fitted a coarse strainer mesh over the flex pipe. As that's near the road surface goodness how much road dirt grit would the engine be sucking up to the cooler mesh?
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I have wondered about spacering the silencer backwards to allow a fresh air pipe to go up in the engine bay to a proper filter - it's just been thoughts so far....

 

[theoneandonly]

@BoultsG

Notes​
1​	Comformatic​
2​	Sooty exhaust​
3​	P0401,P0402,P0238 NO 236​
4​	TAC only 50% Cheesemonster 90%​
5​	LPEGR cooler temp max144 mean100​
6​	LPEGR valve controlling OK?​

So what does this all mean.
DPF is cracked but not enough info to conclusively say cooler is blocked. (contradictory evidence)
The codes with no 236 and Cheesemonsters info on TAC points towards turbo values not as expected.
TWo things i think need checking
1 a good long run with T4.
2 test the turbo solenoid as

Turbo solenoid test

This discusses the option to test the (turbo solenoid)boost valve in MultiEcuScan.

www.fiatforum.com

PS i forgot to mention the injectors but info from next run will help.

 

[Fredastaire]

@BoultsG and @theoneandonly why not do a hot twenty minute 60mph run with data csv looking at the LP EGR opening, LP EGR temperature and manifold pressure requested and actual.
.
If the EGR opening is mainly shut or wide open then the cooler ought to be carbon blocked.
.
However, maybe first remove and flush out the intercooler AND remove and clean the MAP, (not sure what aerosol cleaner to use and how long to allow solvent evaporation)

 

[BoultsG]

@BoultsG

Notes​
1​	Comformatic​
2​	Sooty exhaust​
3​	P0401,P0402,P0238 NO 236​
4​	TAC only 50% Cheesemonster 90%​
5​	LPEGR cooler temp max144 mean100​
6​	LPEGR valve controlling OK?​

So what does this all mean.
DPF is cracked but not enough info to conclusively say cooler is blocked. (contradictory evidence)
The codes with no 236 and Cheesemonsters info on TAC points towards turbo values not as expected.
TWo things i think need checking
1 a good long run with T4.
2 test the turbo solenoid as

Turbo solenoid test

This discusses the option to test the (turbo solenoid)boost valve in MultiEcuScan.

www.fiatforum.com

PS i forgot to mention the injectors but info from next run will help.

I tested the turbo solenoid, thankfully it was working ok. I purchased and fitted a new one 10 days ago. I also tested the old as I still have it and annoyingly that works as well.

We have a long ( 90 minute journey tomorrow mostly on the motorway) so I'll run T4 and post it later.

 

[Fredastaire]

@BoultsG don't worry about the old turbo solenoid, they have a reputation for going sticky and therefore intermittent faulty. Another ex member of this Fiat Forum who ran a car transporter version for mega miles said he ended up replacing every circa 24k miles.
Have a good journey tomorrow.

 

[theoneandonly]

If the EGR opening is mainly shut or wide open then the cooler ought to be carbon blocked.
.
However, maybe first remove and flush out the intercooler AND remove and clean the MAP, (not sure what aerosol cleaner to use

You know i totally agree, i was just putting off the dirty suggestions
Carburetor cleaner wiil do the job but more expensive specific cleaners are available that dont possibly ly leave iffy deposits.(plenty of opinions on you tube) However if it removes a problem you can then get a pukka new one..

I tested the turbo solenoid, thankfully it was working ok. I purchased and fitted a new one 10 days ago. I also tested the old as I still have it and annoyingly that works as well.

We have a long ( 90 minute journey tomorrow mostly on the motorway) so I'll run T4 and post it later.

MAP sensor Location and Multiecuscan data 2017 Twin EGR 2.3

This information was taken from a working 2017 Ducato. Parts of it maybe applicable to other models and general MAP sensors. Location. It is at front of engine on the inlet manifold Map sensor Multiecuscan Data This Gives sufficient info to...

www.fiatforum.com

Removing turbo intercooler,must be info on here somewhere
Looking forward to results.

 

[Fredastaire]

Removing the intercooler is straightforward. Drive van up on ramps, first check the hose clips, you need these to be screwdriver type jubilees. If they are factory single use them measure the diameter and go to buy a pair from the motorist shop.
With new clips to hand, destroy the original hose clips and undo both hoses and ease away sideways. The intercooler is simply slotted up vertical in guides and held in place with tab clips, memory suggests these are say 20mm wide, one faces to the rear, the other of them sideways. You need a big screwdriver to push in to delatch as you ease the intercooler down. Memory also suggests that I undid bumper securing screws to move it out the way a fraction.
With intercooler dropped and removed it's easy to clean. Use a rubber kitchen glove over one pipe end held in place with rubber band. Fill with say one litre petrol fit a glove to the other end and slosh sideways. Leave a while to soak. Empty the murky petrol out the turbo side (to make sure any muck comes out backwards), then repeat several times. Leave to dry and if possible blow out with air line.
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Re install.
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My local garage guy warned about using anything harsher than petrol for cleaning the gills of the intercooler as they are not that strong to resist aggressive cleaners.

 

[BoultsG]

So my journey is complete, here is the data.

 

[theoneandonly]

Im now away for a while. Ive had a look at the raw numbers (no graph capability) and lpegr cooler
Max 159c mean 110c valve openings mostly min to max but some intermedeate. So not indicative of blocked lpegr cooler. So it back to the dity stuff remove MAP sensor an clean intercooler. This may be the one occassion that a 401 actualy means the hpegr valve.

 

[Fredastaire]

For the HP EGR you can use multiecuscan and watch the desired opening and the actual opening and see if they tally. If you remove this EGR then it's straightforward to clean with Caustic, I can tell you how.
The way it operates is that there is a electric motor power drive to push open a valve, very much 'penny on a stick' like a car exhaust valve. It has its own return spring. My opinion is that if carbon on its spindle jamms it then it would be held open, the motor drive would retract being oblivious to the fact that the valve itself was stuck open.
Stepping aside, there have been cases of carbon blocked inlet manifolds.
.
It also advisable to check the air filter, it's a known problem for mice to nest inside and fully chew up the cardboard filter material.

 

[BoultsG]

Im now away for a while. Ive had a look at the raw numbers (no graph capability) and lpegr cooler
Max 159c mean 110c valve openings mostly min to max but some intermedeate. So not indicative of blocked lpegr cooler. So it back to the dity stuff remove MAP sensor an clean intercooler. This may be the one occassion that a 401 actualy means the hpegr valve.

Thanks for the feed back, I’ll check the previous posts from @Fredastaire and carryout a bit of cleaning

 

[BoultsG]

For the HP EGR you can use multiecuscan and watch the desired opening and the actual opening and see if they tally. If you remove this EGR then it's straightforward to clean with Caustic, I can tell you how.
The way it operates is that there is a electric motor power drive to push open a valve, very much 'penny on a stick' like a car exhaust valve. It has its own return spring. My opinion is that if carbon on its spindle jamms it then it would be held open, the motor drive would retract being oblivious to the fact that the valve itself was stuck open.
Stepping aside, there have been cases of carbon blocked inlet manifolds.
.
It also advisable to check the air filter, it's a known problem for mice to nest inside and fully chew up the cardboard filter material.

Thanks @Fredastaire

 

[Poachersmoon]

When cleaning the hpegr, do you need to drain radiator / water line or does that not need to be disconnected?

Thanks

 

[Fredastaire]

Simply undo the water hoses and accept a little loss needing minimum top up. Next time I wood hunt out some rubber bungs if possible to plug the hoses. To clean the EGR; undo and remove the electric drive housing. You can then use thumb pressure to open the valve. Memory has it that I used some studding and a metal cross strap, fitted a central bolt to the cross strap enabling the valve to be fully open before using dilute caustic with a paintbrush to soften and remove the carbon. There is another insert inside the inlet manifold that looks like a man's p***s this pulls out to clean.

 

[Poachersmoon]

@Fredastaire Thanks!. I have removed the Electric drive part (to replace it in an attempt it will fix the issue like a youtube video - it did not) and did throw some cleaner down there and moved the inner valve up and down.

Hopefully ill get an answer this week re- ECU EGR off (as i currently have a tune, but changed to stock while i figure out these p0401 issues, but once they add EGR off ill attempt to run the tune with that)

If I can get Multiscan to damn work ill run a log on Friday to see if anything shows up there - however my vgate bluetooth v2.1 just doesn't want to work with multiscan - it's connected to the laptop (adaptor works fine with alfaobd and torque app) and tests fine on the tests - but won't connect to the ecu . Will try more tests and maybe my older physical cable connection if i can find it (i used to do tuning on various vehicles in the past)

My Theory is if the DPF is cracked, if i turn off the EGR's i should be all good to go (if closed) because the damaged dpf will flow slightly more i guess so it shouldn't cause back pressure issues (as long as the dpf code and regen is still functional)

P.S i finally got under the van on the weekend - yep that DPF and LPEGR ain't going nowhere without the subframe off! Engineers LOL.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Poachersmoon I'm intrigued to know how you turn off the EGR s? I've searched for remap companies with an idea of mapping the LP EGR out yet retaining v32 based software. They don't know what v32 is. We know that Fiat is using this as their up to date software. I just see a risk of a remapper installing something from an earlier era.
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I look forward to reading your comments.
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Lastly I'm puzzled with your thoughts that the DPF will see more volume; is this because the combustion gasses will be hotter without the recirc exhaust?

 

[Poachersmoon]

@Fredastaire I am running v24 i think, the version won't make a difference to a tuner, because they do a full dump of your existing ECU - modify it for the Tune or EGR etc and give it back. Sadly it means if/when i go to v32 (once i can find the garage that can do it) ill have to get it re tuned again. Or ill leave as is.

Regarding DPF - Based on the reading here - a cracked DPF lets dirty soot through, making it's way back into the LPEGR entrance after the DPF. So long as it still flows (and assuming if it's cracked / damaged with more holes it should flow the same or more) then there shoudn't be any back resistance which would cause issues on the turbo etc. IF the DPF was BLOCKED on the other hand, would cause back pressure etc. which would be bad.
I didn't really mean more volume, just that it shouldn't be more of a restriction than it generally is.

Ill keep you posted re the tune idea / process and i am doing a drive this weekend which is a 5hr round trip so will see how it goes.

 

[Poachersmoon]

Initial indication shows the tune worked. Both ehr positions say disabled and have done a 45min aftrr warm up mixed urban highway driving uphill downhill engine braking. No codes.

Doing a 5hr trip this weelend will see

Happy to post details and run some multiscan logs for anyone interested.

Plus if you habe emmisions testsnyou could swap to stock tune

 

[Fredastaire]

@Poachersmoon I'm intrigued, have you done the software delete personally or used a commercial company?
It would actually be good if there was a software mod that looked for a manual switch. Operate the switch and an EGR is disabled, switch off and enabled. This would allow for future clever mot changes.
I would be happy just to delete the LP and leave the HP working.
Finally do you know your typical mpg before so you can compare to 'after'.