Technical Ducato 1.9TD 1999 starting problem

[Rickiever]

Hi, good morning,

I have a Camping Car, Fiat Ducato 1.9 TD from 1999, and since a few weeks it gets more difficult to start the engine in the morning or after a few hours stopped. Initially it took 2 or 3 key turns to properly start (and each turn of a few seconds of cranking), but now it can almost only start with starter spray.

At the beggining of the issue i've visited a mechanic in Hungary that replaced the 4 spark bulbs, installed a pressure valve in the fuel line close to the fuel pump, and also cleaned the 4 fuel injectors. He also did some general maintenance replacing the air filter and the engine oil. The issue remained the same and he just said to me that he had no other idea about the issue.

When the engine is trying to start the smoke in the exhaust is white/grey and smells diesel, after it starts there is no more white/grey smoke, and driving there is only black smoke when accelarating full throtle or climbing, otherwise no smoke at all.

I'm currently in a trip and need to get this issue solved as i'm afraid during the winter it will get worse or even damaging the engine or other components with this starter spray used almost daily.

One day i was trying to start without the spray and one neighbor with a Motorhome approached and said to me "you have an issue with the fuel pressure, it happened to me in my old RV with same engine and it was lack of pressure in the fuel line cause the pump gets old and cannot suck the fuel. You need to install a 12v ad-hoc pump to get this solved.". I thanked him for the tip and start searching for it, but i'm not really sure this is the issue. I'm not an expert in mechanics, but unless i'm wrong, if it was lack of fuel pressure how come it would start with spray and then continuously running without any other issue?

Does anyone had a clue of what this can be and how can i have this solved?

Thanks a lot! Any help appreciated.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

Sounds like your motor has a mechanical timed pump,
Common Rail :Jtd had only just started in 1999..

Any Diesel uses Compression to start burning the Diesel puel in the Cylinders,
Most use Heat also.. So you have 4 x Glow Plugs /Bougie Chauffage

These need power from the battery,

It's possible they have no power..
They have a, Controller box And a Fuse to prevent fire..
It is possible the Fuse has failed


I will post a link to my similar problem

Glowplugs 1248cc multijet

Fully agree.. the only PLUS to this job.. the plugs are at least visible.. (Without a 'Black belt in Yoghurt') ;)

www.fiatforum.com

 

[varesecrazy]

A basic voltmeter.. Or test bulb can help you through Glow Plug testing

 

[Rickiever]

Hi

Sounds like your motor has a mechanical timed pump,
Common Rail :Jtd had only just started in 1999..

Any Diesel uses Compression to start burning the Diesel puel in the Cylinders,
Most use Heat also.. So you have 4 x Glow Plugs /Bougie Chauffage

These need power from the battery,

It's possible they have no power..
They have a, Controller box And a Fuse to prevent fire..
It is possible the Fuse has failed


I will post a link to my similar problem

Glowplugs 1248cc multijet

Fully agree.. the only PLUS to this job.. the plugs are at least visible.. (Without a 'Black belt in Yoghurt') ;)

www.fiatforum.com

Thanks a lot for the reply, i will have a look at the fuse.

 

[Rickiever]

This is what i have on top of the battery, any clue where i can find the fuse?

 

[Rickiever]

This is what i have on top of the battery, any clue where i can find the fuse?

The black box on the right is the glow plug relay, i will try to check voltages there as well as in the glow plugs.

Time to find a voltmeter.

 

[Rickiever]

A basic voltmeter.. Or test bulb can help you through Glow Plug testing

So, i took a voltimeter and i have some checks, hope this can help someone to give me hints if i have some sort of electrical trouble in this circuit.

Battery read 12.55v in idle.

Glow Plug read 15.10v when key is turned but lasts 12 seconds until it goes to 8.10v, in the moment i can ear a click (i suppose in the relay).

Is this the correct voltages for the glow plugs to warm up enough?

 

[bugsymike]

So, i took a voltimeter and i have some checks, hope this can help someone to give me hints if i have some sort of electrical trouble in this circuit.

Battery read 12.55v in idle.

Glow Plug read 15.10v when key is turned but lasts 12 seconds until it goes to 8.10v, in the moment i can ear a click (i suppose in the relay).

Is this the correct voltages for the glow plugs to warm up enough?

It sounds like the heater plugs are basically doing their job, you could try after the twelve seconds turning off then on again the ignition to give it more heat, then see if it will start.
As @varesecrazy mention diesel need good compression to get the heat to start , the other name for a diesel engine is CI for Compression Ignition.
What this means is if your vehicle has done a few miles and compressions are not very high then the engine can't generate enough heat turning over to ignite the diesel fuel injected into it.
A compression test would show this.

 

[varesecrazy]

So, i took a voltimeter and i have some checks, hope this can help someone to give me hints if i have some sort of electrical trouble in this circuit.

Battery read 12.55v in idle.

Glow Plug read 15.10v when key is turned but lasts 12 seconds until it goes to 8.10v, in the moment i can ear a click (i suppose in the relay).

Is this the correct voltages for the glow plugs to warm up enough?

So this is the small cable to the Head of the Glow plug.. reads 15 volts for @12 seconds

Do all 4 of these leads give 15 volts?

Ideally all 4 x plugs should get HOT

Well done fof getting this information

 

[Rickiever]

It sounds like the heater plugs are basically doing their job, you could try after the twelve seconds turning off then on again the ignition to give it more heat, then see if it will start.
As @varesecrazy mention diesel need good compression to get the heat to start , the other name for a diesel engine is CI for Compression Ignition.
What this means is if your vehicle has done a few miles and compressions are not very high then the engine can't generate enough heat turning over to ignite the diesel fuel injected into it.
A compression test would show this.

Thanks for the reply and explanation. I will give it a try with several attempts to heat the glow plugs and check if the cycle shorten from 12 seconds.

Should we exclude electrical trouble?

Engine has 145k kms, i would say not that much to say good bye i hope.

I sent a few emails to mechanics in Italy to try to get someone looking at this during my trip, and a couple suggested me to consult a diesel pump expert. Any idea why this suggestion? Maybe pump is not pressuring enough fuel for start?

 

[Rickiever]

So this is the small cable to the Head of the Glow plug.. reads 15 volts for @12 seconds

Do all 4 of these leads give 15 volts?

Ideally all 4 x plugs should get HOT

Well done fof getting this information

I will run some additional voltage checks tomorrow, but all of them were reading 8.10v after the 12 seconds. Didn't check all once key turned but i will.

Any idea how can i test the fuse without removing it? I tried to get to the fuse box today but quite hard to get it in touch to open or maneuver.

 

[varesecrazy]

A quick and simple test:

On an occasion when the engine doesn't want to start,

Heat the plugs with key at MAR

DO NOT CRANK!

HEAT plugs again, and a 3rd time

Then crank the motor


If it starts Better, you have a heat issue

If no improvement, your problem is Not with basic glowplug function

 

[varesecrazy]

I will run some additional voltage checks tomorrow, but all of them were reading 8.10v after the 12 seconds. Didn't check all once key turned but i will.

Any idea how can i test the fuse without removing it? I tried to get to the fuse box today but quite hard to get it in touch to open or maneuver.

If you get power to the 4 cables.. The Fuse must be ok

1 test idea..

When you got 15 volts..

Where was the Negative lead of the meter..?
Try battery and then motor next to glowplug.. Should still be above 12 volts

 

[bugsymike]

I sent a few emails to mechanics in Italy to try to get someone looking at this during my trip, and a couple suggested me to consult a diesel pump expert. Any idea why this suggestion? Maybe pump is not pressuring enough fuel for start?

You said at beginning of thread you had white smoke and smell of unburnt fuel? so that would rule out diesel pump not giving enough fuel.
Re the heater plugs, if easily accessible you can take them out and test, failing that I have tested them for continuity using an Ohm meter, but recently I tested the ones on a Fiat Scudo using an Amp meter rated at 50 amps and put it in series with the heater plugs one at a time and got readings of around 11amps from the good ones and Zero from the faulty ones.

 

[Communicator]

Gentlemen please may I intrude upon your discussion?
This senior person is rather confused by some of the previous posts, and seeks clarification.

I make the following observations.

The glow plug relay (control unit) is a Bosch 0281 003 005, as shown in @Rickiever 's photo.
This is a simple timed relay with a cut off initiated by cranking the engine. It only provides one output for the four glow plugs in parallel. The parallel connection may be a solid metal strip, or busbar which will have to be removed if individual plugs are to be tested.

The connections seem to match those shown on diagram sheet 3, from German x230 workshop manual. This diagram does not suggest any fuse in the main glow plug circuit.

@Rickiever quoted a battery voltage of 12.55V at idle. I interpet this as engine stationary. 12.55V is slightly on the low side, but passable. The voltage must be measured directly across the battery terminals.

The subsequent measurement of 15.1V at the glow plugs must be incorrect. Where is the extra voltage coming from? I suggest that 1.51V is more probable. This would suggest a high resistance connection either in the glow plug unit or between it and the battery.

I suggest taking the following readings with the key turned to the accessories position. Perhaps a trustworthy key turning assistant could help?

1. Voltage directly across battery terminal posts, to confirm that battery is OK.
2. Voltage between glow plug control input from battery, and battery negative, to check for bad connections.
3. Voltage between glow plug control unit output, and battery negative, to check control unit condition.
4. If possible, voltage between glow plugs, and battery negative, to check for any loss in wiring.
5. Voltage between engine block, and battery negative. Reading may be (-ve). This to check engine/battery earthing.

The attached drawing may be as much use as sheet music would be to me, but the glow plugs are the 4 items at lower left, marked 1160, control unit is 1150 above, 0004 is the glow plug light, and CA00 is the ignition switch.
I am guessing that 1157 serves to shorten the glow plug time when engine is warm, and that 1247 is a engine high temperature shutdown via stop solenoid valve 1244. Not all of these may apply, but the function of 1157 should not be forgotten.

 

[varesecrazy]

Thank you @Communicator

All my OLD td motors were indeed on a busbar... My mistake, should have realised


You may well be correct with the 1.50 volts also..

Time will tell

 

[Rickiever]

You said at beginning of thread you had white smoke and smell of unburnt fuel? so that would rule out diesel pump not giving enough fuel.
Re the heater plugs, if easily accessible you can take them out and test, failing that I have tested them for continuity using an Ohm meter, but recently I tested the ones on a Fiat Scudo using an Amp meter rated at 50 amps and put it in series with the heater plugs one at a time and got readings of around 11amps from the good ones and Zero from the faulty ones.

Thanks for the reply and explanation. All 4 glow plugs have been replaced 1 month ago.

I don't think i'm qualified enough to remove them. You think even new glow plugs would give problems?

Attached the new glow plugs package and part number.

 

[Rickiever]

Gentlemen please may I intrude upon your discussion?
This senior person is rather confused by some of the previous posts, and seeks clarification.

I make the following observations.

The glow plug relay (control unit) is a Bosch 0281 003 005, as shown in @Rickiever 's photo.
This is a simple timed relay with a cut off initiated by cranking the engine. It only provides one output for the four glow plugs in parallel. The parallel connection may be a solid metal strip, or busbar which will have to be removed if individual plugs are to be tested.

The connections seem to match those shown on diagram sheet 3, from German x230 workshop manual. This diagram does not suggest any fuse in the main glow plug circuit.

@Rickiever quoted a battery voltage of 12.55V at idle. I interpet this as engine stationary. 12.55V is slightly on the low side, but passable. The voltage must be measured directly across the battery terminals.

The subsequent measurement of 15.1V at the glow plugs must be incorrect. Where is the extra voltage coming from? I suggest that 1.51V is more probable. This would suggest a high resistance connection either in the glow plug unit or between it and the battery.

I suggest taking the following readings with the key turned to the accessories position. Perhaps a trustworthy key turning assistant could help?

1. Voltage directly across battery terminal posts, to confirm that battery is OK.
2. Voltage between glow plug control input from battery, and battery negative, to check for bad connections.
3. Voltage between glow plug control unit output, and battery negative, to check control unit condition.
4. If possible, voltage between glow plugs, and battery negative, to check for any loss in wiring.
5. Voltage between engine block, and battery negative. Reading may be (-ve). This to check engine/battery earthing.

The attached drawing may be as much use as sheet music would be to me, but the glow plugs are the 4 items at lower left, marked 1160, control unit is 1150 above, 0004 is the glow plug light, and CA00 is the ignition switch.
I am guessing that 1157 serves to shorten the glow plug time when engine is warm, and that 1247 is a engine high temperature shutdown via stop solenoid valve 1244. Not all of these may apply, but the function of 1157 should not be forgotten.

Wow! Thanks a lot for the detailed answer and questions, i will retest all again and ensure i provide accurate readings on all the bullet points mentioned.

 

[bugsymike]

Apologies for my vague testing guidance, I am currently testing my 2010 Fiat Scudo 2litre with Peugeot RHK engine, which has four separate feeds which can be tested from the heater plug relay socket whereas the older Ducato 1.9TD has as been mentioned the "bus bar" joining all four heater plug feeds, so the terminals would need to be disconnected at the heater plugs to get similar readings.
Apart from not seeing the heater plugs actually glowing as in my demonstration if terminals disconnected the individual heater plugs may be tested this way using a Wilkson test set or similar, which has a 60 Amp range.The first photo is with the amp meter in series via my power source/jump pack, just shows the heater plug glowing and in the second photo I have connected the voltmeter to show the power source reading.Apologies as usual for shakey photos.
Assuming the heater plug and relay all test out correctly, I personally would suggest a compression test as earlier.

 

[Rickiever]

Gentlemen please may I intrude upon your discussion?
This senior person is rather confused by some of the previous posts, and seeks clarification.

I make the following observations.

The glow plug relay (control unit) is a Bosch 0281 003 005, as shown in @Rickiever 's photo.
This is a simple timed relay with a cut off initiated by cranking the engine. It only provides one output for the four glow plugs in parallel. The parallel connection may be a solid metal strip, or busbar which will have to be removed if individual plugs are to be tested.

The connections seem to match those shown on diagram sheet 3, from German x230 workshop manual. This diagram does not suggest any fuse in the main glow plug circuit.

@Rickiever quoted a battery voltage of 12.55V at idle. I interpet this as engine stationary. 12.55V is slightly on the low side, but passable. The voltage must be measured directly across the battery terminals.

The subsequent measurement of 15.1V at the glow plugs must be incorrect. Where is the extra voltage coming from? I suggest that 1.51V is more probable. This would suggest a high resistance connection either in the glow plug unit or between it and the battery.

I suggest taking the following readings with the key turned to the accessories position. Perhaps a trustworthy key turning assistant could help?

1. Voltage directly across battery terminal posts, to confirm that battery is OK.
2. Voltage between glow plug control input from battery, and battery negative, to check for bad connections.
3. Voltage between glow plug control unit output, and battery negative, to check control unit condition.
4. If possible, voltage between glow plugs, and battery negative, to check for any loss in wiring.
5. Voltage between engine block, and battery negative. Reading may be (-ve). This to check engine/battery earthing.

The attached drawing may be as much use as sheet music would be to me, but the glow plugs are the 4 items at lower left, marked 1160, control unit is 1150 above, 0004 is the glow plug light, and CA00 is the ignition switch.
I am guessing that 1157 serves to shorten the glow plug time when engine is warm, and that 1247 is a engine high temperature shutdown via stop solenoid valve 1244. Not all of these may apply, but the function of 1157 should not be forgotten.

So, here it goes what i believe are the correct readings to those bullet points, but before, let me tell you that when reaching the relay to connect the positive of the multimeter, i spotted a box that says Fuse (pic 3), not sure if this is interesting or not, but it's there.

Now the tests:

1. Voltage directly across battery terminal posts, to confirm that battery is OK.
-key off position = 12.87v
-key on position = 12.51v

2. Voltage between glow plug control input from battery, and battery negative, to check for bad connections.

Red wire pic 1
-key off position = 12.73v
-key on position = 12.48v

3. Voltage between glow plug control unit output, and battery negative, to check control unit condition.

Brown wire pic 1
-key off position = 0.02v
-key on position = 12.46v

4. If possible, voltage between glow plugs, and battery negative, to check for any loss in wiring.

From left to right Pic 2 (negative on battery)
1. 9.80v
2. 9.80v
3. 9.70v
4. 9.70v

5. Voltage between engine block, and battery negative. Reading may be (-ve). This to check engine/battery earthing.

If i connect the positive on Pic 2: (with key on)

Spot B i get 0.00v
Spot A i get 10.80v
With key off is 0.00v both places.

After all this, i've tried 3 or 4 cycles of plug heating and crank but not easier than before, had to use the spray again.

Hope this helps you to help me, i find the earthing reading very strange, either engine is not earthing or i used the wrong place in the engine to test.