Technical Starting problem with fiat ducato 2.8 jtd engine

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Technical Starting problem with fiat ducato 2.8 jtd engine

Bigal55

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Hi Im having a problem with my 2004 fiat ducato 2.8 jtd engine fitted with a sigma s30 alarm immobiliser. When I turn the ignition key round till the dash lights come on then press the sigma fob button there's a click then I turn back the key a little and round again to start, sometimes the engine fires up no problem and sometimes it just runs for a second then dies.
I have a good starter battery.
Just wondered if anyone else has had a similar problem?
Cheers Allan
 
Hi Im having a problem with my 2004 fiat ducato 2.8 jtd engine fitted with a sigma s30 alarm immobiliser. When I turn the ignition key round till the dash lights come on then press the sigma fob button there's a click then I turn back the key a little and round again to start, sometimes the engine fires up no problem and sometimes it just runs for a second then dies.
I have a good starter battery.
Just wondered if anyone else has had a similar problem?
Cheers Allan
There are lots of posts re the original immobilser system on Fiat Ducato 2.8s which may help.
Personally unless you have all the details on an aftermarket alarm/immobilser system I have no faith in them and they do not often work as reliably as factory set ups.
Maybe you can find a guy locally who used to install them and has more specific knowledge on the Sigma s30 system.
 
Hi, thanks for the advice.
I spoke to a mobile alarm installer who said if the engine turns at all its not likely to be the immobiliser at fault as they immobilise the starter and pump, he suggested the emergency cut off switch was faulty but I bypassed it and still the same but my feeling is its the immobiliser playing up
 
Hi, thanks for the advice.
I spoke to a mobile alarm installer who said if the engine turns at all its not likely to be the immobiliser at fault as they immobilise the starter and pump, he suggested the emergency cut off switch was faulty but I bypassed it and still the same but my feeling is its the immobiliser playing up
Factory immobiliser allows cranking but not firing and usually puts I think a yellow triangle lit on dashboard.
Is the rev counter trying to work?
Have you tried a spare key?
Is the few pump in tank working?
 
Yes it's all working normally no triangle on dash, runs fine when it starts up just has this random starting problem. I've only got the one ignition key so can't see if it's the problem
 
Is the vehicle stored outside, as is normal? If yes have you considered the possibility of mice in the air filter?

I cannot see the ignition key being the problem as it starts, however a bad connection at the back of the ignition switch is not unknown.

I am not familiar with the sigma alarm system, and do not understand why your turning the key back (switching off?) before trying to start the engine.

Without the alarm, normal practice would be to switch on, check that all lights other than red battery and oil warning go out, then turn to start position.
 
Yes it's all working normally no triangle on dash, runs fine when it starts up just has this random starting problem. I've only got the one ignition key so can't see if it's the problem
I think this is typical of a duff crankshaft sensor. It requires to start on crank but runs on camshaft sensor
 
As mentioned elsewhere if crankshaft sensor fails there is no attempt for the rev counter to move, as in it doesn't even try to show engine cranking revs.
My personal experience with crank sensors has been they usually fail when engine warm and then after cooling engine can restart. Many years ago I had a customer with a Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 which frequently died at the same junction on her way to work, each time I got there roughly 20 minutes later, car would instantly restart. Wasted time and money with so called diagnostic specialist, in the end took it to dealer, fault located and cured for less than the cost of specialist. I appreciate these days diagnose is more effective.
I did have similar with a Doblo 1.9JTD which died at 60-70mph, I coasted down a side road, nothing obvious under the bonnet and 10 minutes later it restarted so able to get home and ran diagnostics which pointed to crank sensor which I fitted and no further problem.
I have no experience re Camshaft sensors apart from reading about Nissan I believe, with stretched timing chains which would throw up a camshaft sensor code as the ECU read a mismatch between cam and crank but engine still ran although obviously needed expensive timing chain job, which turned out to be a common fault on that model.
It is always harder when not at vehicle, however from past experiences with after market anti theft systems, my suspicions would be in that direction.:)
 
I think this is typical of a duff crankshaft sensor. It requires to start on crank but runs on camshaft sensor
Sorry but no, you have that the wrong way round. Uses camshaft sensor to determine stroke, and then runs on crankshaft sensor.

As I understand the matter, if the engine decides to continue running it's OK. If the ECU was not happy with either sensor it would not allow the engine to start.
 
Thanks for your helpful replies
I read on another thread that there's a spacer kit from fiat that raises the camshaft sensor a couple of millimetres as this is a common fault and cures the difficult starting problems.
I went out and started it yesterday and noticed that once when it fired it ran for a second then almost died as usual but then kicked back in and continued running fine like a switch or connection had been made with a noticeable bump. I wonder if this is a sensor related problem?
 
I am particularly interested in this problem, because I also have an x244 2.8jtd. However I am struggling to come upwith a logical suggestion, which includes a sensor input that would stop the engine running. Also it seems that the problem is intermittent, at the time of starting the engine, but Allan has not mentioned the engine stopping while driving.

One thing that has not been mentioned is whether or not the engine has EGR, as it was optional on the 2.8jtd. A sticking EGR valve would at least cause the engine to run roughly.

The following items a given as suggestions for discussion / investigation.

1. Obstruction in air intake / filter.
2. Water in fuel
3. Faulty sensor
4. Faulty battery connection / earthing
5. Anything else.

In connection with the sensors, I am attaching an extract from Fiat eLearn, which lists the sensors. Please note that items 7 through 17 are inputs. (See broad arrows.)

As regards the battery connections, the x244 does not have the earth strap problems of the x250, but internal corrosion of the flag type main chassis earth lug has been reported. On the x244 a poor connection at this point may not affect the starter motor, but it could cause problems elsewhere.
 

Attachments

  • Ducato 2.8 JTD Engine ECU Sensors & Actuators.pdf
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Another thought. Is there any possibility a water getting into the engine bay fusebox? This could wreak havoc.
 
Yes it's a strange problem.
The engine never hesitates, cuts out or misfires when running and when it does start there's no blacksmoke from the exhaust. I don't know if it had an egr valve fitted.
Being an a class motorhome the front dashboard is kind of built over the engine which means you can only get access from the front but you can unscrew and lift off the dash quite easily and get in that way, but it's not ideal .
So far with this van
I've never had any problems with bad earth's but my last ducato had a bad engine earth and all the gauges went back to zero and lights went out when driving but that's never happened with this one so maybe OK.
I'm wondering if the fuel filter was blocked up and needing changed would this cause a fuel starvation problem when starting only?
Thanks for the pdf but I can't open on my phone for some reason.
 
Just a thought, at the beginning of post you mention the operation to start with the Sigma system involves a "click", does this mean a relay is activated and if so would it be possible to check that is functioning correctly.
I am sorry, but I really have a phobia about faults in aftermarket alarm/immobiliser systems.:(
 
When the fault occurs what do you have to do to start it after it starts and dies?
Also can you note if you hear the Sigma system "click" every time or not when engine fails to run normally.:)
 
Yes it's a strange problem.
The engine never hesitates, cuts out or misfires when running and when it does start there's no blacksmoke from the exhaust. I don't know if it had an egr valve fitted.
Being an a class motorhome the front dashboard is kind of built over the engine which means you can only get access from the front but you can unscrew and lift off the dash quite easily and get in that way, but it's not ideal .
So far with this van
I've never had any problems with bad earth's but my last ducato had a bad engine earth and all the gauges went back to zero and lights went out when driving but that's never happened with this one so maybe OK.
I'm wondering if the fuel filter was blocked up and needing changed would this cause a fuel starvation problem when starting only?
Thanks for the pdf but I can't open on my phone for some reason.
I was prepared to send a pdf line drawing of the EGR system, but if it cannot be opened, not much help. I will attach a photo of non EGR engine instead. Please compare the rear (manifold) side of the engine with yours. An EGR fitted engine will have a circular EGR valve sticking up at the vehicle RH side, and a cooler running across the engine, over the manifolds.

On second thoughts, perhaps follow this link and scroll down to the EGR circuit. The diagram shows the rear side of the engone with EGR fitted.
 

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  • Ducato 2.8 JTD Engine.jpg
    Ducato 2.8 JTD Engine.jpg
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