Technical Difficulty shifting into 1st and 2nd gear

[Skuur]

Hello all,

Two months ago I've bought myself a 2007 1.2 Panda, 60000 km. Gave it its 60000 km checkup and replaced the oil filter, belts + water pump, etc.

One thing which I've noticed is that it has more difficulty shifting into 1st and 2nd gear, than it has shifting into 3rd and 4th gear.
(If my memory serves me right, 5th and reverse are also tougher to get into compared to 3rd and 4th.)
It takes more force to push the gear stick into those gears, comparable to when the clutch in another car isn't completely pushed down. Therefore my first suspect isn't the gear change cables connected to the gear stick, but the clutch?
It doesn't get better if I repeat the movement, for example, 10 times.

Now I do have Haynes' workshop manual, and I hoped for an easy nut-and-bolt adjustment, but it mentions the clutch is connected hydraulically.

Before I start taking things apart, I'd like to know if this issue sounds familiar to someone. Preferably with a solution.

 

[A3jeroen]

Nah our LHD panda's use a bowdencable. There should be an adjuster in front of the battery.

gr J

 

[koalar]

not the clutch

if its 1,2,5,R

 

[DaveMcT]

Rubbing clutch makes first gear hard to engage. Third gear is reluctant on many cars and will often that will crash when the clutch is rubbing.

Suggest you bleed the clutch. If it improves you will need a new master cylinder. The seals wear and allow air to get through the return stroke.

My wife's 2007 Panda has 60K miles and needed a new master cylinder. I took the slave apart but seals were fine.

Fiat clutches often fail to disengage when worn so it might be the clutch but the master cylinders rarely last longer than the clutch so replacement is not false economy.

 

[A3jeroen]

Suggest you bleed the clutch...

LHD!

gr J

 

[koalar]

clutch ? difficult engaging 5th gear but not 3rd or 4th ???

 

[g8rpi]

You need to check your car (look at clutch pedal) to be sure but it appears LHD cars are cable not hydraulic.
How does the clutch "feel"? Where is the "bite" point compared to start and stop of pedal travel?
If travel and bite are OK it would be worth changing the gearbox oil. Examine the old oil for any signs of metalic particles.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[Skuur]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

I found both cables connected to the gear stick, not yet the one connected to the clutch. However...
I went to try various things on a business park today with little traffic around.
I have to rectify one thing: 5th and R aren't really affected.

What I noticed:
Standing still: shifting into 1st and 2nd goes smoothly.
Accelerating, shifting from 1st to 2nd at low RPM: smoothly.
Shifting down from 3rd to 2nd or 2nd to 1st: only goes smoothly if my car moves at the speed which would correspond to ~1000 RPM in the gear I'm trying to shift into. (I didn't touch the gas pedal.)

In other words: When shifting down to 2nd and 1st, the engine RPM needs to match (or be above) the RPMs which the current rolling speed of the car would correspond to in that gear. If the engine RPM is below that, shifting gears becomes tough.

This test makes me think I need to match the RPMs already <before> shifting the gear stick into another gear in a Panda, instead of while releasing the clutch (which I'm used to).
I've never had this in other cars, but I have to add those were a couple of years newer.

----
The travel and "bite" of the clutch feel OK. There seems to be plenty of travel after both the point of 'disengagement' and 'engagement'.
If this still sounds like a clutch issue after above test (I'm not sure anymore), I'll look at the clutch related suggestions.

 

[DaveMcT]

You are describing a need to rev match the gear shirts. It sounds like the clutch is not opening properly. This often happens when the clutch is worn out.

 

[koalar]

clutch drag is normally worse 1st gear at stand still

I suspect the synchro on the gearbox


still do the free and obvious First


the clutch cable is easy to find looking at the gear selector you have already found look slightly closer to the front of the car and slightly to the left


check the gearbox oil level

 

[Skuur]

Thanks again! Around summer I'll have a look at it. Right now the weather isn't too great to spend hours servicing my car outside (and ride my bicycle through the rain to my job if I haven't yet finished).

Until then it'll at least teach me to be kind to the gearbox by rev matching.

 

[DaveMcT]

It sounds like your clutch has all but failed. As you say, it "can" be driven but you will be stressing the synchromesh and reducing the gearbox life. You will also be stressing the release levers so take care they dont get bent.

 

[koalar]

What I noticed:
Standing still: shifting into 1st and 2nd goes smoothly.

I take its fine with the engine running but the car is stationery

sounds like the gearbox is disconnecting from the engine via the clutch okay

And the problem only occurs when the driveshafts are turning

are you sure there's oil in the gearbox ?

 

[koalar]

any update ?

 

[koalar]

original poster

threads gone dead but we don't know if its been fix

seems to be happing a lot lately

 

[Skuur]

Sorry, busy times over here with a heritage to sort out. I haven't forgotten this thread!

> sounds like the gearbox is disconnecting from the engine via the clutch okay
Yes, I've tried the "put the gearbox in 1st, keep the clutch pushed down and accelerate to ~5k RPM" test I found on the internet. Car didn't move. It also takes a healthy amount of clutch pedal travel before the clutch engages.

I'll add checking the oil to the list of things to check when the weather gets better (around summer). I haven't noticed any leakage since I bought the car.

When the gear stick doesn't fall into place smoothly, it helps to keep the gearstick at the point where I feel resistance (applying slight pressure), then wait approx. 2 seconds until it pops in.

 

[koalar]

try reverse when the gearbox is both warmed up and cold


the symptom above is sounding like clutch drag.

 

[DaveMcT]

When the gear stick doesn't fall into place smoothly, it helps to keep the gearstick at the point where I feel resistance (applying slight pressure), then wait approx. 2 seconds until it pops in.

Sounds like the clutch is dragging. Assuming you have a hydraulic clutch, bleed the hydraulics. If it improves you will need a new clutch master cylinder. You can get just the master for around £50 so persevere. Same part is used on Fiat 500 (not the big fat ones) and Ford Ka.

If that does not solve it you will need a new clutch. A master cylinder that's sucking air is needed either way, so its not false economy to replace it.

 

[A3jeroen]

Really? It's a LHD cable operated clutch.
Skuur: Lekker weer om te sleutelen vandaag toch?

gr J

 

[DaveMcT]

I clearly said -

Assuming you have a hydraulic clutch,

If it's a cable - the OP needs a new clutch.