dealers warned!

[Stu DemonD]

Stuart....cant remember if I asked you already but what were the codes obtained for your ulysse?

I just continued on the Ulysse thread of mine....

I wasn't told codes, though - service manager was not available when I eventually got hold of the car on Friday - BUT they replaced something in the fuel fuller cap area [either the unit or a sensor on it] and put in more FAP fluid [the same fluid that a few months ago, were going to charge me £200 for as a cure to all my problems, and I refused].

 

[poggy]

No comparison,BM's cost 2 or 3 times price of most fiats,of course build quality will be better.

Of course you can compare them, they are bigger cars with bigger engines so the cost price will be more by ratio. But quality is not just cost, it is company approach, quality through design and quality of service. You can spend a lot of money on a car and still produce a poor one. Compare the small Japanese cars, similar price and spec and the same reputation for quality as BMW. The Fiat Panda is a good example, it has a good reputation.

I'm honest with my customers,if I don't know the fault i'll say so! Honesty gains respect from the customer & when it is sorted they are thankful.Add this to the fact at my garage will al;ways phone customer to let them know the stage of repairs/diagnostic...I know cause I do it & often phone customer weeks later to check everything is ok.

You are one of the rare one's, I have never had a call from a Fiat dealer to see if everything was OK. To be fair they do call to say the car is ready.

All Fiat techs are given a training plan,this always includes electrics/engine management & examiner operations which they have to do like it or not.If they dont come up to scratch they have to do it again!

The difference is you need to think outside of just this training and have a wider understanding of electrics etc. I'll give you a couple of examples I have had.

The heated drivers seat didn't work when I got the car. They said it was the switch, but using a multimeter found there was no 12V supply to the switch. They still insisted it was the switch and ordered a new one. After weeks of waiting they got the switch, which didn't work of course. They then said it would have to comer back for another day to connect up the Examiner. As it hadn't worked since new and the fact there was no voltage at the switch I suggested it was probably a loose connector. Anyway they said they couldn't do anything without the examiner connected. I decided to have a look at where the cables run and removed the cover of the plastic tray under the seat, in it were a plug and socket which weren't connected. I pushed them back in and the job was done.

The second was the gear selection indicator on the dash for the auto box. It kept flashing and not showing which gear was selected. Apart from that the gearbox was fine. The dealer said that according to Examiner it was stuck between two gears and ordered a new ECU. This arrived a few weeks later and when installed wouldn't let the car go over 40mph. They put the old one in again. I looked on Eper and suggested the switch on top of the gear selector shaft used to show the shaft position wasn't adjusted right. They order a whole new set of selector cables and said they needed a special tool from Fiat to set it up. I noticed there were two spade connectors on the switch and thought they must be used for the set up. I took the cover off and it was obvious that when the gear selector was in a certain position you just adjusted the switch until you got continuity on the spade connectors. I did this myself and 10 minutes later it was fixed and has been ever since.

Anybody looking at the diagrams with a basic understanding should have identified these problems. Can you imagine how much this cost Fiat in parts and wasted time chaging the ECU etc. It also didn't require any special diagnostic tools.

Just to let you know the other experiences I have had.

The drivers seat base was replaced and when I went to collect the car, the trim on both sides of the seat was hanging off. It was obvious the plastic retaining clips had been broken off and this was something the mechanic would have known. There was no way they would have gone back on. Rather than say they would have to order bits, they just tried to get away with it. A total lack of any quality in the job. I showed the dealer before I left and they agreed to order new trim. I decided to fit these myself rather than loose the car for a few hours. When fitting them I noticed a relay on the seat was hanging down on the seat mechanism, this would have been crushed if I had moved the seat. Again just a lack of attention to detail.

The sunroofs have never worked properly from new, they loose the calibration so that they won't shut or open with "one" touch. I told the dealer I could reset them by holding the button in for 30 seconds, but it only lasted a few goes. On two occasions they just reset them and the second time they said they had spent ages testing it. The first time I tried the button it stopped working again. Fortunately I was at the dealers to show them. They said they would look into to it (again) and get back to me. They never have !!!!.

The day before the car was serviced last time the tyre pressure sensor alert came on to say the tyre pressure was low on one of the tyres. I checked the pressure using a digital gauge I had but thought that as I didn't have a pump and it was going into the dealer they could check it. I collected the car and the service sheet had a tick for checking tyre condition and pressure. As soon as I pulled out of the dealer the alert came up so I decided to go to the garage and pump them up, the valve covers hadn't even been removed there was brake dust all over them. The next day it went in to have the LPG fitted and I was allowed to have a look while they started the fitting. They removed a lot of components and hanging down was the pollen filter housing, one of the clips was still there and the other one had fallen off. It was obvious that the mechanic couldn't reach it properly so didn't bother to put it back right. I find this unbelievable and if you have ever done one you will know they don't fall off by themselves.

With regard to the recent recalls on the Ulysse for the airbag moisture problem and engine management software, how come it took Fiat several months longer to send out a recalls compared to Citroen and Peugeot for the same cars. During this time there was a accidental deployment of the airbags in a car in Europe causins injury.

To be honest given all these problems I have a severe lack of confidence in Fiat and their dealers, especially as they charge a premium for their services.

Please don't take this as having a go at you as you obvioulsy take a great deal of pride in your work and also have a lot of interest in what you do.

 

[T14086]

Thats some reply mate! thought my posts where long....well here goes

Of course you can compare them, they are bigger cars with bigger engines so the cost price will be more by ratio. But quality is not just cost, it is company approach, quality through design and quality of service. You can spend a lot of money on a car and still produce a poor one. Compare the small Japanese cars, similar price and spec and the same reputation for quality as BMW. The Fiat Panda is a good example, it has a good reputation.

Well getting cheap labour does play a part,means more extras can be added to tempt customer(panda made in Poland etc)but the Japanese do 'appear' to take greater pride in their work.I think the Croma has good build quality.
As for aftersales service,a Fiat dealer wont worry if he loses 100 customers as there will still be thousands more in the area were a BMW has to be pleasent to regain the rather small amount of cars in the area.

You are one of the rare one's, I have never had a call from a Fiat dealer to see if everything was OK. To be fair they do call to say the car is ready.

Or it's due a service

The heated drivers seat didn't work when I got the car. They said it was the switch, but using a multimeter found there was no 12V supply to the switch. They still insisted it was the switch and ordered a new one. After weeks of waiting they got the switch, which didn't work of course. They then said it would have to comer back for another day to connect up the Examiner. As it hadn't worked since new and the fact there was no voltage at the switch I suggested it was probably a loose connector. Anyway they said they couldn't do anything without the examiner connected. I decided to have a look at where the cables run and removed the cover of the plastic tray under the seat, in it were a plug and socket which weren't connected. I pushed them back in and the job was done.

Yes the clues are there aren't they! Should of been spotted straight away.

The second was the gear selection indicator on the dash for the auto box. It kept flashing and not showing which gear was selected. Apart from that the gearbox was fine. The dealer said that according to Examiner it was stuck between two gears and ordered a new ECU. This arrived a few weeks later and when installed wouldn't let the car go over 40mph. They put the old one in again. I looked on Eper and suggested the switch on top of the gear selector shaft used to show the shaft position wasn't adjusted right. They order a whole new set of selector cables and said they needed a special tool from Fiat to set it up. I noticed there were two spade connectors on the switch and thought they must be used for the set up. I took the cover off and it was obvious that when the gear selector was in a certain position you just adjusted the switch until you got continuity on the spade connectors. I did this myself and 10 minutes later it was fixed and has been ever since.

Sure there is a service news on this/adjustment method.

Anybody looking at the diagrams with a basic understanding should have identified these problems. Can you imagine how much this cost Fiat in parts and wasted time chaging the ECU etc. It also didn't require any special diagnostic tools.

Fiat are getting strict on warranty issues often rejecting claims for the most minute detail.Did you realise Fiat dont pay the dealer for diagnostic time,therefore guesswork?

The drivers seat base was replaced and when I went to collect the car, the trim on both sides of the seat was hanging off. It was obvious the plastic retaining clips had been broken off and this was something the mechanic would have known. There was no way they would have gone back on. Rather than say they would have to order bits, they just tried to get away with it. A total lack of any quality in the job. I showed the dealer before I left and they agreed to order new trim. I decided to fit these myself rather than loose the car for a few hours. When fitting them I noticed a relay on the seat was hanging down on the seat mechanism, this would have been crushed if I had moved the seat. Again just a lack of attention to detail.

Ahh the famous Ulysse seat trim,correct tools & few extra minutes care & attention would be of help here.Some sections are hard to remove I will admit but when your against the clock? Honesty in the first place would of been better here "sorry sir accidently brokle some trim on your seat,will replace them as soon as possible"..job done.

The sunroofs have never worked properly from new, they loose the calibration so that they won't shut or open with "one" touch. I told the dealer I could reset them by holding the button in for 30 seconds, but it only lasted a few goes. On two occasions they just reset them and the second time they said they had spent ages testing it. The first time I tried the button it stopped working again. Fortunately I was at the dealers to show them. They said they would look into to it (again) and get back to me. They never have !!!!.

Hold for 30seconds,release then hold for further 5seconds.Any problems with water ingress under headcloth?

The day before the car was serviced last time the tyre pressure sensor alert came on to say the tyre pressure was low on one of the tyres. I checked the pressure using a digital gauge I had but thought that as I didn't have a pump and it was going into the dealer they could check it. I collected the car and the service sheet had a tick for checking tyre condition and pressure. As soon as I pulled out of the dealer the alert came up so I decided to go to the garage and pump them up, the valve covers hadn't even been removed there was brake dust all over them. The next day it went in to have the LPG fitted and I was allowed to have a look while they started the fitting. They removed a lot of components and hanging down was the pollen filter housing, one of the clips was still there and the other one had fallen off. It was obvious that the mechanic couldn't reach it properly so didn't bother to put it back right. I find this unbelievable and if you have ever done one you will know they don't fall off by themselves.

Not easiest clip to & dropped loads myself but find it or get another.Tyre pressures...oh dear,basic servicing stuff.

With regard to the recent recalls on the Ulysse for the airbag moisture problem and engine management software, how come it took Fiat several months longer to send out a recalls compared to Citroen and Peugeot for the same cars. During this time there was a accidental deployment of the airbags in a car in Europe causins injury.

I think the problem came first to light on the Peugeots,but dont quote me on that,I honestly dont know......see I 'm honest! better than giving you b*ll**** only for you to find out later...i'd never make a good salesman

To be honest given all these problems I have a severe lack of confidence in Fiat and their dealers, especially as they charge a premium for their services.Please don't take this as having a go at you as you obvioulsy take a great deal of pride in your work and also have a lot of interest in what you do.

No offence taken at all.Fiat are doing their best to 'up' their image,it will take time but hopefully the customer will start to see the benefits(if not already)very soon

 

[poggy]

By the way I have never complained to the dealer, maybe I should.

I really don't mind if mistakes are made such as breaking trim (which is difficult to avoid) and wouldn't give it another thought if they just told me. Our company makes mistakes but the the one thing I insist on is that we tell the customer before they find out for themselves.

The Ulysse is probably a bad example in many ways because it is the French's fault being mostly Peugeot. The dealer in question is now under new management and some of the staff have changed as well, so maybe things will improve. They had one guy there before called Ned who was great, he was on this forum for a while and bent over backwards to help you but he left them soon after we bought the Ulysse.

Your right about it being dealer specific though, because when the Alfa went in last week for the O2 sensors, they phoned up to say what the problem was, no argument over the warranty and it was fixed within 24 hours (a day ealier than they estimated) and it came back washed and hoovered. They are part of the Fiat group, but just a different dealer and I couldn't fault the service at all. I must admit everybody warned me about Alfa quality and service, but to be honest my experience on both has been very positive.

 

[T14086]

I really don't mind if mistakes are made such as breaking trim (which is difficult to avoid) and wouldn't give it another thought if they just told me. Our company makes mistakes but the the one thing I insist on is that we tell the customer before they find out for themselves.

Agree totally there,as you say it happens unfortunally no matter how careful you are...that middle center seat is a bugger to strip down:bang:

The Ulysse is probably a bad example in many ways because it is the French's fault being mostly Peugeot. The dealer in question is now under new management and some of the staff have changed as well, so maybe things will improve. They had one guy there before called Ned who was great, he was on this forum for a while and bent over backwards to help you but he left them soon after we bought the Ulysse.

True dealerships change staff almost overnight sometimes,I know a few with bad reputation from years back even though almost all the staff has changed.This guy Ned didn't leave cause you brought a ulysee did he

Your right about it being dealer specific though, because when the Alfa went in last week for the O2 sensors, they phoned up to say what the problem was, no argument over the warranty and it was fixed within 24 hours (a day ealier than they estimated) and it came back washed and hoovered. They are part of the Fiat group, but just a different dealer and I couldn't fault the service at all. I must admit everybody warned me about Alfa quality and service, but to be honest my experience on both has been very positive.

What was wrong with the sensors,is it a 156?

 

[poggy]

True dealerships change staff almost overnight sometimes,I know a few with bad reputation from years back even though almost all the staff has changed.This guy Ned didn't leave cause you brought a ulysee did he

It probably drove him to it, but he was a good guy and should have been in charge.

What was wrong with the sensors,is it a 156?

The error code was PO154 which was no activity on one of the O2 sensors, apparently the voltage was too low so they swapped both sensors to be on the safe side. From looking under the bonnet it's not the two in the exhaust which you can easily see, it's the two lower down the exhaust as they are very new looking. It's a 2.0 156 JTS Selespeed, the only downside of the car is that it likes very expensive 10W 60 fully sythetic oil and needs topping up regulary.

 

[T14086]

The error code was PO154 which was no activity on one of the O2 sensors, apparently the voltage was too low so they swapped both sensors to be on the safe side. From looking under the bonnet it's not the two in the exhaust which you can easily see, it's the two lower down the exhaust as they are very new looking. It's a 2.0 156 JTS Selespeed, the only downside of the car is that it likes very expensive 10W 60 fully sythetic oil and needs topping up regulary.

I remember now,was the 4 wire sensors wasn't it(asked you this before ),at least you check your oil regulary a week doesn'tgo buy when have to 'discretely' suggest a owner checks his oil more often as his/her car has about a litre left in it.Dont forget to check that cambelt at 36K,i'd renew at this mileage if I was you.

 

[Stu DemonD]

By the way, the dealership never returned my phone call from yesterday, even though I spoke to one of the service girls there [she has known me all my life]....

 

[T14086]

:shakehead

Is this war now Stuart?

Something is niggling me about the fluid they topped your car up with,examiner has to reset the system but the fluid has to be measured first(or what remaining measured)so the figure can be entered into examiner.I cant help but feel something simple is being overlooked here?

 

[Stu DemonD]

:shakehead

Is this war now Stuart?

Something is niggling me about the fluid they topped your car up with,examiner has to reset the system but the fluid has to be measured first(or what remaining measured)so the figure can be entered into examiner.I cant help but feel something simple is being overlooked here?

I agree, I think it is something simple - yet when I spoke to them yesterday, she said they had another car in with the same/similar problem...

I am giving them benefit of the doubt for now, and hoping that they are looking into it more, before they contact me with the solution and how they are going to proceed :chin:

 

[T14086]

All my papers are at work but just a thought...you know you have to put over 7 litres in when you fill up dont you? or are you like me...a fiver a time bloke

Yeah deff remember something about you reset the amount you put in BACKWARDS on examiner (counts down from 9999 or something) i'll try & find out exactly.

 

[poggy]

I remember now,was the 4 wire sensors wasn't it(asked you this before ),at least you check your oil regulary a week doesn'tgo buy when have to 'discretely' suggest a owner checks his oil more often as his/her car has about a litre left in it.Dont forget to check that cambelt at 36K,i'd renew at this mileage if I was you.

Had the cambelt renewed at 37K with tensioners, balance belt etc just in case. They do a belt inspection at 36K, but apparently the tensioners can be a problem so I just had the lot changed to be on the safe side.

I check the oil every week or even more if I am doing a lot of miles. I forget if they said it is normal for it to be upto a litre every 500 miles or 1/2 litre every 500 miles.

 

[Stu DemonD]

All my papers are at work but just a thought...you know you have to put over 7 litres in when you fill up dont you? or are you like me...a fiver a time bloke

Ha ha, more like £60 a time, sometimes more....

Although I tend to get bored by the £40 mark and call it a day then.

 

[T14086]

Ha ha, more like £60 a time, sometimes more....
Although I tend to get bored by the £40 mark and call it a day then.

I just couldn't do that....I start sweating around the £4 mark although on paydays/xmas/birthday I might splash out & put a tenner in

 

[poggy]

Get a LPG conversion Stu, £18.00 to fill up the tank and you don't sound like a taxi .

T14086: You know more than any of the people at my dealership, what can you do if the sunroof looses it's calibration a couple of days after you do the reset (pressing close button for 30 seconds, then release and press again). It only seems to last a few goes and goes wrong, it is the same for all 3 sunroofs, although it happens at different times for the front roof and the back two.

Also I have been told by other people that you can reduce oil consumption on the Alfa 2.0JTS if you de-glaze the bore using some special liquid, have you ever heard of this. I use Miller 10W 60 fully synthetic and the book says that on the JTS you can only use 10W 60. The dealer uses Castrol Magnetec 10W 40, would this reduce oil consumption and is it safe to use despite what the book says (it's a lot cheaper than £8 a litre for Millers or £10 a litre for Castrol RS).

Thanks

 

[HornetUK]

T14086 where abouts in the UK do you work, I know you can't say exactly, but is it S, W, N? If you say where exactly you'll have us all visiting when we have a problem!

Just interested where roughly in case I ever come across you!

Taking my oil leak to be inspected tomorrow by Perrys in Amersham, best dealer I've used to date in Beds, Herts & Bucks...only one haven't tried is the new Anthony Betts in Hemel Hempstead...ex Rover.

My 2 year warranty ends on 13/3, presume gearbox oil leaks maybe covered in 3rd year anyway.

 

[T14086]

Far far away