Technical CV joint issue?

[Pepandaros]

Hi all, (and happy new year)

I have bought my Panda only a few days ago and have noticed a grinding noise when cornering right and also severe vibration/noise when backing up under load.
When reversing out a parking space on a flat smooth surface like tarmac it's absolute fine but I did get a fright when attempting to reverse on my steep drive, this is when the heavy vibration occurs.
This sounds to me that one or more cv joints are gone? Is there a fairly easy way to check which ones? I mean trans or hub end? I had a quick look this afternoon and grabbed the driveshafts to see if there is any obvious play but they feel solid.
I did a search on here and read some had a hard time to get it replaced, my car looks great in/outside but anything in the wheel wells and underneath suspension hubs etc looks heavily corroded so looks a nightmare job coming up.

Any thoughts?

Pete

Edit; (forgot to mention it's a 2009 1.1)

 

[koalar]

grinding noise when turning right is likely to be front nearside brake

does the noise change if you dab the brake

 

[koalar]

CV are unlikely unless you get a clunking noise while turning

 

[DaveMcT]

A worn outer CV joint makes a loud clicking when you turn at full lock at parking speeds. Replacements are not expensive.

The inner joint hardly ever makes any noise when worn but a really bad one might knock on power on/off. They are expensive because you have to buy a complete replacement drive shaft.

Brake disc covers corrode and get bent into the disc making nasty noises. Sometimes stones get trapped and cause a horrible screech. I really dont see any point in them especially the little bits of tin fitted to Panda hubs.

Worn brake discs develop a flange on the edge that can cause the pads to rattle. New discs are pads are not silly money.

 

[irc]

+1 on the grinding noise being brake related.
For the banging when reversing, I would check the engine and gearbox mounts, especially the "Dog Bone" rear mount.

 

[koalar]

does it accelerate smoothly when cold
any gurgling noises


loads of possibilities for jerky at low speed.

low rev misfire
engine mounts
worn input shaft

and so on

lets start by eliminating things one at a time

I start by grabbing the engine and trying to rock it back and forwards, and also watch how much the engine moves as you gently reverse a few inches with the hand brake on

 

[Pepandaros]

Wow, thanks guys for all your quick replies!

I will take it for a spin in the morning to see if it the sound disappears when applying the brakes. It's indeed just rasping/grinding noise when turning.
But I can clearly feel rather harsh vibration and loud noise when reversing.

Koalar, the engine itself is running very smooth. I can drive away by releasing the clutch only and it's perfectly fine in a straight line. I must say I do have noticed some clunking now and then as well (like the engine shaking) when applying and releasing the throttle when stuck in slow moving traffic.

I will try and see if there's a lot of movement in the engine, here's hoping that this is the case as seems a lot easier fix than those cv joints!

 

[koalar]

Wow, thanks guys for all your quick replies!

I will take it for a spin in the morning to see if it the sound disappears when applying the brakes. It's indeed just rasping/grinding noise when turning.
But I can clearly feel rather harsh vibration and loud noise when reversing.

Koalar, the engine itself is running very smooth. I can drive away by releasing the clutch only and it's perfectly fine in a straight line. I must say I do have noticed some clunking now and then as well (like the engine shaking) when applying and releasing the throttle when stuck in slow moving traffic.

I will try and see if there's a lot of movement in the engine, here's hoping that this is the case as seems a lot easier fix than those cv joints!

here's a similar judder, worse when reversing up hill

different car but basically the same mechanics

Vibration in reverse | FIAT Cinquecento / Seicento

Seicento Sporting SPI 2000 67K miles Mornin folks. Fitted a new gearbox mount on my Sei yesterday, the old one was pretty grim. Anyhoo, since fitting, I've now got a strong vibration through the car when I reverse out of my slightly up hill and lumpy drive way. Gear doesn't slip, it just...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Pepandaros]

Definitely something to double check when I'm about to order parts then...
Weather forecast looks good for tomorrow so will be checking the things mentioned above and report back.

Thanks guys!

 

[DaveMcT]

There could be numerous things.
The "dog bone" engine mount (under gearbox) will cause clunking on power take-up.
Outer CV joint is breaking up.
Worn brakes clatter and rattle when the pad backing plate grinds on the disc wear lip.
Dust cover on back of brake is rusted and rubbing on the disc.
My money is on the brakes and dust cover.

 

[Pepandaros]

It appears the front discs and pads have been renewed very recently, I took the calipers off anyway and at the nearside everything was fine but offside caliper pivot/sliding pin is seized. It means there is enough movement possible with leverage to change the pads but it won't slide, as the bleed nipple is seized I didn't want to take the risk of breaking anything and leaving the car undrivable so reassembled as it was. Must say the splash guard was indeed bend sitting against the disc and after clearing this the "rasping" sound has disapeared but the grinding noise is still there when cornering to the right. I hope the noise will be gone after replacing the caliper.

Also had a look and feel at the engine mounts, I don't think there's too much movement but guess it's hard to judge without experience.
I tried reversing with the handbrake on and slowly releasing the clutch does result in a knocking noise but the vibration is far less than when the car is rolling.
Changing the dog bone gearbox mount could be something to start with as they not that expensive I guess as I now think the two noises are unrelated.

 

[koalar]

It appears the front discs and pads have been renewed very recently, I took the calipers off anyway and at the nearside everything was fine but offside caliper pivot/sliding pin is seized. It means there is enough movement possible with leverage to change the pads but it won't slide, as the bleed nipple is seized I didn't want to take the risk of breaking anything and leaving the car undrivable so reassembled as it was. Must say the splash guard was indeed bend sitting against the disc and after clearing this the "rasping" sound has disapeared but the grinding noise is still there when cornering to the right. I hope the noise will be gone after replacing the caliper.

Also had a look and feel at the engine mounts, I don't think there's too much movement but guess it's hard to judge without experience.
I tried reversing with the handbrake on and slowly releasing the clutch does result in a knocking noise but the vibration is far less than when the car is rolling.
Changing the dog bone gearbox mount could be something to start with as they not that expensive I guess as I now think the two noises are unrelated.

That’s good progress


The back plates / splash guard can be a bit of a pain. They tend to warp a bit. Bit of brut force is often needed to fetch back a couple of mm clearance. Also worth checking a stone isn’t trapped at the back


A helper should be able to identify what’s causing the banging in reverse now you can make it happen at stationary. Maybe just a missing exhaust hanger hopefully

 

[timmycm850]

Hi All

If youve only had it a few days, take it back to the garage to have a look at it.

Tim

 

[DaveMcT]

The exhaust should have a bracket on the straight pipe just before the flexible joint. They are made of mild steel and get very hot so corrode rapidly. But the bracket is important to avoid the pipe cracking at the catalyst outlet weld. There should be a rubber hanger just after the flexible and two more further down the system. It's not uncommon for the pipe to bang on the bodywork.

However as the car has just been into the garage, they should be tasked with sorting the noise.

 

[Pepandaros]

I bought the car "as seen" from a private seller.. prices at the dealers/traders are just madness at the moment so went down this route.

And thanks for pointing out the bracket, for sure there is no bracket at that point on my car! There is one just further back where the pipe bend to the left. The pipe is heavily corroded so better getting a new ordered.

 

[Pepandaros]

So yesterday I got finally to change the rear engine stabiliser mount, weird thing is that the mount get pulled to the near side and the alluminium cast is rubbing against the underbody. The old one has been partly "grinded" away (which has caused the noise during reversing) but I thought it would be because of worn rubber bushings.
When slightly tighten the bolt at the car side it looks there's approx 15mm space between the mount and gearbox end. As the bracket is welded to the underbody this means the engine sits misaligned? I was first wondering if it used to have a extra spacer but the bolt length would not allow it.
The dimensions of the new one are similar to the old one but that's not a guarantee I'm using the right one...

 

[koalar]

well sort of progress

I just fitted a couple of gearboxes and the rear mount has always been straight back

should it bolt from the other side

I can remember it being a pain as the bolt does not pass the exhaust

 

[dagdromer]

Isn't this because the engine mount above the gearbox is shot? this will lower the gearbox causing it to tilt and sitting like on the picture.

 

[koalar]

is part 5 bent

 

[koalar]

not a diesel is it?

they use a different dog bone that off set