Changing/charging batteries on stop/start vehicles

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I've been interested in this subject for some time now as it seems fraught with a whole load of potential pitfalls for the unwary. Now it seems likely we are going to need to replace the battery in my older boy's 2012 1.4 8 valve VVT Punto which has stop/start and one of those wee black electronic battery condition monitors on its negative battery terminal (I fancy it's saying to me "I dare you" every time I look at it!)

The likely prospect of needing to replace this battery in the near future has galvanized me into furious Googling action and I've come up with one I've read before and one - the Banner Power Company one - which I haven't previously seen.

The Samarins item gives a pretty good overview as does the Banner one but the Banner one gives a very useful list, about 3/4 of the way down the page, of how many of the vehicle makes are affected when changing a battery - You just have to tolerate all the Banner advertising, but that doesn't detract from the value of the info. Guess what? Fiats don't seem to need to be "electronically interfered" with! You can just fit the new battery and drive away. (maybe reset your clock etc resulting from temporary loss of power, but I would use a maintainer so should avoid that) Unlike my Ibiza which seems to be quite problematic in comparison.

Anyway, for those who are interested here's the "stuff" I turned up:

https://www.samarins.com/glossary/battery-sensor.html

https://www.bannerbatterien.com/en-...TO-Correctly-registering-start-stop-batteries

And a somewhat more in depth one:

https://www.batterypoweronline.com/...-to-the-success-of-future-automotive-designs/

I've concentrated more on what affects your actions when changing a worn battery for a new one as that's the problem which is engaging my "little grey cells" at this time. However I've also been looking at charging batteries on car - without disconnecting the terminals. If you are going to do this you must use a quality modern electronically regulated "smart" charger - like my Ctek for instance. The old transformer types risk blowing a whole load of electronics! I've dug up quite a bit of "stuff" relating to this and it all seems to have a common theme:

1) Only use a quality smart charger.
2) Examine battery terminals. Does either have a monitor wired into it (often actually integral with the terminal clamp) Stop start often has a monitor on the negative terminal but you just might find one on the positive terminal - I haven't explored how to deal with positive terminal mounted installations yet as none of our cars have one.
3) If there is no battery monitor installed you can connect your charger, as has always been done, neg (usually black) cable to neg (-) battery post and pos (usually red) cable to pos (+) battery post.
4) If you have a monitoring module on your negative battery connection then it needs to be included in the charging so your Pos (red) charger lead goes, as always, to the pos (+) battery terminal but your neg (black) charger lead should be connected to an earth down stream of the battery terminal - for instance where the vehicle's neg battery cable is bolted to the chassis or maybe just connect to the engine block. In that way the monitor can "see" what's going on with the battery. If you connect the charger directly across the two battery terminals the monitor is being left "out in the cold" and you may find when you later run the engine DTCs will have been posted.

So there you are folks. Hope this is useful? I have to say though that although all this looks very sensible to me and the advice about connecting chargers has now worked on two of the "family fleet" (Punto and my Ibiza) successfully using my Ctek charger, and I'm feeling very confident indeed that I can simply renew the Punto's battery without any electronic resetting needed, I'm not an auto electrician and all this info has been gathered from t'internet (I think it's you Jim who calls it that? - I rather like the sound) so has to be subject to error or me simply misunderstanding something. If you try it and it all ends in tears I'm afraid you're on your own

 

[chr1s]

For the Panda (2012+), the handbook is quite clear about how to charge the battery (with details for the Stop/Start versions). For Stop/Start, the battery is disconnected from the vehicle circuits but the sensor is kept in series with the charging.
It does not specify any extra actions (e.g. electronic reset) when replacing the battery.
View attachment Panda Handbook.pdf
This seems to agree with Jock's findings.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

For Stop/Start, the battery is disconnected from the vehicle circuits but the sensor is kept in series with the charging.
It does not specify any extra actions (e.g. electronic reset) when replacing the battery.
View attachment 213750
This seems to agree with Jock's findings.

Your attachment shows the same connector used on my boy's 2012 Punto. in fact that negative terminal looks identical. I would guess they are advising disconnection of that ground terminal so that the car's electronics are isolated from the charger circuit in case someone is using a charger that isn't so "smart". From the battery's standpoint, and that of the monitor, connecting the charger's neg lead to the chassis earth or the engine block is the same - just the rest of the electronics is now exposed. I think the risk with a high class charger like the Ctek is infinitesimal as I've kind of proved by connecting both the Punto and my Ibiza in this way with no detrimental effect witnessed.

Nice to have the official recommendation though - thank you.

 

[portland_bill]

Good stuff Jock, thank you for all that.

Soon after I got my Fabia, I suspected the battery might be weak, probably due to it sitting unsold for a time. I looked at replacements, with widely varying pricing, and specs, and the issue with the battery code number. A genuine VAG battery was a silly price.

A Yuasa battery was available from Euro, and other sources at reasonable cost, but has no code number. An email to Yuasa brought a quick, and nice response. They said, two options.
1. Fit the new battery and use it. After a few days, the system will have got used to the state of the new battery and all will be well.
2. If you have access to a diagnostic tool, just increment the serial number by one digit, which causes the monitoring system to assume a new battery.

Which seems to match the info from the links. So not so much to worry about after all.

Didn't buy a battery at that time, as it seemed to recover, and has worked fine for nearly two years. It does seem more reluctant to operate the stop/start for longer after a cold start now, so I guess it will throw its hands in the air soon.

One benefit of stop/start, is that it should demand a new battery some time before it lets you down.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just thought you all might like a wee update on "the boy's" Punto battery? When I went up last Saturday and tested it with my Multimeter (distress call from my boy - "Dad car won't go") it gave every symptom of being flat and registered 11.3 volts on the meter. I managed to get it going and ran it for a while, probably 10 minutes, and found the alternator was charging well (around 14.3 volts). The battery is the original (2012 reg vehicle) so probably well past it's best. Worryingly when it started the rev counter fluttered up and down over about a third of full scale deflection half a dozen times or so and there was a noise like a relay rapidly clicking away behind the dash at the same time. This stopped once the engine settled down to idle. I suspect that the current being drawn by the starter to turn the engine (and it turned over very slowly) dropped the voltage way below what the auxiliary circuits required and this was what gave this strange effect. As soon as the Alternator got to work it lifted the voltage to the expected range so it all settled down. (that's my wee theory anyway) I advised him to give the car a good run as most of his daily running is just to work a few minutes down the road and, as he works shifts, often in the dark with lights and heated rear screen in use so, almost certainly, it's just not getting enough charge.

So, on Sunday, he took the car a long run - about 2 hours he said - I'm sure this will have been very beneficial, and not just for the battery. In fact I got a call from him at around 10 am on the Sunday asking me what oil to put in it. Apparently he'd not checked the car, apart from infrequently doing tyre pressures using the company airline at his work, since I serviced it almost a year ago - I utterly despair! - and the oil level was just showing on the last 1/8 inch of the dip stick, way below the "low" mark! There's an old saying which starts "You can lead a horse to the water, but" I seem to remember it also spawned a joke which involved the use of two bricks? Maybe it's time I employed the bricks?

Pleased to be able to report that the battery, when checked at about 18.00 hrs on Sunday and not having been run on the Sunday so it will have had more than enough time t stabilize, was checking out at 12.3/12.4 volts. Looks like there may be some life in it yet. I'm going to stick my Ctek on it for an overnight soon just to give it a full charge (which no alternator regulator will allow) which will benefit the plates greatly. With these results I'm feeling really quite confident it's going to be some time before he's needing to buy a battery.

Just had a call, as I'm writing this, to say he's at work today and the car started fine this morning with a good rapid spin up and none of the strange clicking noises or rev counter flickering. So, fingers crossed, but it's looking good at this time. I have a spare Aldi electronic battery charger and I think I'll lend him this with instructions to give it a boost maybe once a month which may further extend the battery's useful life.

Ps. We don't remember his Stop/start ever working which will also point towards battery.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

At the moment I’m not using my Punto much and I suspect the battery is getting weak now, it usually has a 7w solar charger in the windscreen but as the days get shorter, and if left for a week the power starts to drop off and it won’t start anymore, last night I tried it thinking I might take it to work today but it protested with dimming lights, clicking relays and no starter attempts so I suspect tomorrow it’s getting put on a charger. I probably should invest in a CTEK but 1. They cost a lot. 2. I don’t use it very often. 3. Knowing me I’ll sell the Punto a bout a week after getting the charger.

I would like a socket on the car somewhere I could just plug a top up charger into when it’s not in use but that’s not really practical at the moment.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

At the moment I’m not using my Punto much and I suspect the battery is getting weak now, it usually has a 7w solar charger in the windscreen but as the days get shorter, and if left for a week the power starts to drop off and it won’t start anymore, last night I tried it thinking I might take it to work today but it protested with dimming lights, clicking relays and no starter attempts so I suspect tomorrow it’s getting put on a charger. I probably should invest in a CTEK but 1. They cost a lot. 2. I don’t use it very often. 3. Knowing me I’ll sell the Punto a bout a week after getting the charger.

I would like a socket on the car somewhere I could just plug a top up charger into when it’s not in use but that’s not really practical at the moment.

Thanks for that about the clicking relays Andy helps reassure me that it was the low state of charge which was the problem with our Punto.

I struggled with justifying the price of the Ctek but one of the big reasons why I decided to buy it is that so many cars now-a-days do "weird" things if you disconnect their batteries. Ok, you can connect a separate slave or buy a memory saver but there's always then an increased possibility for an "accident" to happen. So the fact that it actually states in the "bumph" that comes with the Ctek that it's safe to connect with the battery still in circuit on the vehicle (which I've also confirmed by emailing them) gives me great confidence when using it. By the way it's kit includes a plug to be permanently wired in and a connector to replace the crocodile clips fitted. (it's a simple plug on connector so you can revert to the croc clips at any time you want) It occurs to me that if you didn't make this plug too "permanent" it would be simple to swap it to your next vehicle quite quickly.

I have a large, very good quality, battery (Bosch "silver" S5 780A 77AH - so plenty of "grunt" available for the "wimpy" petrol engines it now has to deal with.) I bought it for my old diesel 1.9 tdi Cordoba roughly a couple of years before she bit the dust - as you do! I had also just bought a complete set of good quality tyres for her which were less than a year old when she went to her rest! The scrappie let me keep the battery and wheels with tyres without altering the price offered. I thought that was really good of him until it occurred to me that it would have cost him for tyre disposal and maybe the batteries aren't worth all that much any more with acid disposal etc to take into account? Anyway, as there was less than 1mm of wear on the tyres, I quickly got an excellent price for them on Gumtree and the battery I keep as my jump start backup for the "Family fleet". As only 2 of the six cars are fairly new (my Ibiza coming up on 5 years and the Kia Rio 3 years old) the other 4 are all much older - Astra coming up on 14, Punto 9 soon, Panda 11 in the new year and the Jazz 12 - I get called on to do jumps from time to time. Last one was the Jazz which we eventually (3 jumps later) discovered was down to my granddaughter who had discovered how to turn the interior light on! That was a good lesson in not just automatically assuming it's the battery and buying a new one! The big battery is also very handy to have for memory backup if I need to disconnect one of the cars batteries for some reason. By the way my Ctek (Multi XS 7000) also has a maintenance voltage setting which can be used in the same way (ie it can supply a constant, regulated, 12volt supply) however as I've become used to using the battery I've not used that facility yet.

I've been giving occasional thought as to what I'm going to do about jumping when the Bosch finally calls it a day. I'm attracted to a jump start pack of some sort but I'm not especially attracted to a battery pack so I've been looking, as I've briefly mentioned before, at batteryless Super Capacitor starter packs. Like this for instance: https://www.sealey.co.uk/product/5637187875/electrostartr-batteryless-power-start-800a-12v When I first started looking at these they seemed a bit pricey but now I've seen them at approx 50% discount. With a max 800 amps peak available it should be able to start any thing my big Bosch battery could - but, of course it will not have the extended cranking time a battery would have. Plenty of time to think about it though.

 

[portland_bill]

A slight aside.
I owned a Ctek for a short time. Wrote a letter to a car magazine, and they sent it as a reward for star letter.
Never used it, so lent/gave it to my brother as he was using his car infrequently.
Then one day he was asking about warranty, and declaring it faulty and dangerous. Apparently, the batttery was on charge in the kitchen overnight. There had been a bit of a bang. Battery was split, bits of charger were strewn about, including a small piece stuck in the ceiling.
Moral of the story, no.1. There's a reason battery chargers have long leads. Sitting them on top of the battery is not a good idea.
Moral of the story no.2. Keep away from my brother.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks PB. When I was a trainer we had a small dedicated battery room where the batteries for the training media - engines and vehicles - were kept charged ready for use. One of my "shop talks" was entirely dedicated to battery maintenance and charging and I had a couple of choice "horror" stories to scare new trainees with. Sitting the charger on top of the battery then going off and leaving it just might qualify to join that list of stories!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Ok so inspired by this thread I went out and bought a CTEK replica a “street wise accessories” intelligent fully automatic 3.8amp charger from my local car parts store (allowed to open under lock down rules)
Was a grand total of £30 compared to the £100 CTEK with exactly the same specs

I’ve put it on the punto and will report back later if it’s worked ok or if the car and the charger have both exploded

 

[varesecrazy]

I found the instructions for my 'Accumate' charger..

Will have to study them.. not charged my puntos battery in at least 3 years

 

[portland_bill]

An addendum to my exploding battery story.
When I started in the trade, in a small garage, we often had battteies on charge for customers.
We also serviced small outboard motors, which needed to be in a tub of water to test, as they used the sea for coolant. So we had a galvanised tub, about 1.5m x 1m x 1.5m deep. There was always a greasy scum floating on top. (We'll come back to that.)

So one day, a man returned for his battery. He arrived at the forecourt office, next to the fuel pumps, smoking. I requested he extinguish his cigarette, while I fetched his battery. Not wishing to be told by a 'small boy', he refused, and marched up the yard towards the workshop where the batteries were on the charger. I scampered after him, insisting he extinguish the cigarette, as the battery would still be emitting hydrogen. He was still not going to be told.
As he got close to the workshop, the foreman saw him, and yelled at him to put out the cigarette. Still no response.
He arrived at his battery, a large, heavy, rubber cased item, and bent over it to pick it up. There was a 'woof!', as the whole top of the battery lifted off, hit him in the face, and continued upwards, hitting the roof. Acid sprayed up, and around. Man yelled, and reeled backwards, whereupon the foreman, a large guy, just picked the customer up, carried him under his arm, horizontally, across the yard and dumped him head first into the outboard test tank. he held him there for a few seconds, lifted him for a breath, and dumped him in again, just for fun I think.
A very funny sight, man covered in oily, smelly slime from head to chest.
Man got wiped down with a rag, and seemed ok, headed off home for a bath.

He later returned, with a small bruise to his forehead, and two minor burn spots. He was very apologetic, and bought a new battery.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I've mentioned before that I spent some years back in the '70's/80's as a trainer teaching light vehicle repair and maintenance. There were 3 of us who taught this subject with me being the youngest. The oldest chap had this lovely story which he used to recount about one of his trainees who discovered that he could light his cigarette by bending a piece of stout welding rod into a "U" shape, holding it with a pair of pliers and, briefly, shorting it out across a vehicle battery - the wire would glow red hot!

The story went that on the fateful day this individual did this on a battery which had just been taken from the battery room and mounted on a training engine rig. Probably it was still heavy with Hydrogen gas and it exploded in his face. He was shouting and bawling but my colleague had the presence of mind to stick his head in a fire bucket - could be a joke there about how he would have been better to have stuck the trainees head in the bucket? - (we had sand and water buckets as well as CO2 and foam extinguishers) and then he was marched off down to the medical room. The story continues that on his return he had the letters LUK (in mirror image) angrily emblazoned on his forehead which had "stamped" themselves there from the one piece LUCAS cell top closure - d'you remember Lucas used a one, or sometimes, two piece red coloured battery top in those days rather than separate screw in plugs? He would round of his account by saying that the other trainees from then on nick named him "Lucky".

This all was purported to have happened long before I joined the team and I'm not sure whether I really believe it However it makes a good story doesn't it. Unfortunately it all backfired rather badly because on one occasion when I was supervising his class, during a period of illness, on his behalf I witnessed a trainee actually doing this and succeeding in lighting his cigarette! I wonder if he'd have thought to try it without hearing the story? It resulted in a wee extra duty for me. I was instructed to go round the vehicle classes (3 light vehicle and one heavy) and deliver a safety talk using this incident as illustration for the dangers in "fooling around" with batteries. The whole thing was made even worse of course because smoking in the workshops was strictly forbidden anyway.

 

[DaveMcT]

Set fire to a balloon containing pure hydrogen and you get a whoosh of flame. Try the same with electrolysed hydrogen and oxygen (exactly as you get from a lead/acid battery) and you'll get a serious bang.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

So on further examination it seems that the original fiat branded battery in my 2011 Punto, having don’t nearly 180k miles, and suffered two lockdowns when it was largely unused, has finally died,

It seemed no matter what charger I connected it would not hold a charge, after days on charge it still gave me the clicking ballet if you tried to start it, so I’ve ordered a new stop start battery off GSF for £83 delivered and hope that solves the dead car issue.

As the weather gets worse, I plan to put the golf away for the winter to keep the road salt off and abuse the already well abused Punto on my daily commute

 

[varesecrazy]

£83 For a FIAT diesel

£180+ for a Golf Diesel

Seems to make sense

 

[PuntoHowTo]

£83 For a FIAT diesel

£180+ for a Golf Diesel

Seems to make sense

The same Brand and model battery for my golf gt diesel would be the same price the main thing being it’s from GSF who massively discount everything with discount codes so both batteries would be £207 for a YUASA 5000 Series Car Battery - 5 Year Warranty but with 60% off via a code. I never buy from GSF without tracking down some sort of discount code

 

[varesecrazy]

My friends GTD ( of mystery coolant loss fame)
Was £400 for a battery.. shopping around got it down to £180

My twinairs will need one at some point

Hopefully last til next summer when demand has dipped.. covid and cold weather has kept prices high

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Seems I spoke too soon, good old GSF had recommended a battery that was not stop start compatible, so they cancelled the order, they were very good in then recommending the correct battery, which they didn’t have in stock and could not tell me when it would be in stock.... so bought the correct battery from Amazon for £120 more than I was hoping to pay but needs must sadly and I really can’t be bothered to trawl the internet for a few pounds saved here or there

 

[PuntoHowTo]

My friends GTD ( of mystery coolant loss fame)
Was £400 for a battery.. shopping around got it down to £180

My twinairs will need one at some point

Hopefully last til next summer when demand has dipped.. covid and cold weather has kept prices high

I honestly don’t understand that. Looking at the info both my Punto 1.6 diesel and my golf 2.0 diesel use the exact same battery. So same price no matter which specific battery you order, however looking at ECP their battery prices were stupid and in some cases much more than £400 for the same batteries selling else where for ~£150ish