Technical Catastrophic Clutch Failure

[Sfrontato]

It's strange how some do that isn't it. I think it's the position of the circlip in it's groove. If it's managed to get itself all to one side I think that's where the problem comes from. I tend to give it a couple of good strong jerks with my big tyre lever and if it doesn't jump out I turn the shaft about 1/3 of a turn and try again.

Yes I read that somewhere, the OS shaft took two goes with the 'rope trick', and I rotated the shaft a bit between attempts.
The circlips were quite loose - I can see how these cause trouble.

Looked for an alternative to cold chisel after dreading a third removal - there's next to no opportunity to impart sideways force with that 'option'.

I found it by far the most significant pinch point of the job - lifting the gearbox up to the clutch was easier! As Koalar mentioned, overall the job is easy in principle with some prior experience, easy to get wrong.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Something I have noticed about the Motor trade, is whilst all being highly experienced. we all have our own ways of doing things which we consider to be the only way, based on the way we were taught and are happy to argue our way is the only way, unlike people like solicitors who are very reluctant to attack another solicitor.

I agree with learned ways. I suppose we are all strongly influenced by what we were originally taught when we were new to the trade then, as the years roll by we learn what works best for us and tend to become entrenched in our opinions and preferences. Technology and materials specifications change though and new products become available so i believe it's very important to keep an open mind and read trade publications and talk to people still working daily in the trade. For instance, I bet most of us older grease monkeys used copa slip when rebuilding brakes? Now a days though we should all be using non metallic ceramic based anti seize - shouldn't we?

One aspect of our trade which I really hate Mike is openly criticising other's work. I don't mind discussing with other mechanics some of the dodgy repairs I've come across - and I've seen a good few, but I strongly believe in keeping criticism "within the family". Slagging off other garages/mechanics to customers is just so unprofessional and leads to support for the opinion many hold that garages rip people off! Rather than slag off a poorly done job to a customer or condemn a workshop (much as I'm tempted to do) If the task was one we couldn't handle I'd prefer to make a recommendation for a workshop which I know to be particularly capable for that make of vehicle or specific repair.


As I mentioned brake lube above and I know I'm always interested in what other people are using so I might mention that, after trying a number of other products, I find I really like this stuff: https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-140336-granville-ceramic-brake-grease.aspx - just in case anyone is interested.

 

[bugsymike]

I agree with learned ways. I suppose we are all strongly influenced by what we were originally taught when we were new to the trade then, as the years roll by we learn what works best for us and tend to become entrenched in our opinions and preferences. Technology and materials specifications change though and new products become available so i believe it's very important to keep an open mind and read trade publications and talk to people still working daily in the trade. For instance, I bet most of us older grease monkeys used copa slip when rebuilding brakes? Now a days though we should all be using non metallic ceramic based anti seize - shouldn't we?

One aspect of our trade which I really hate Mike is openly criticising other's work. I don't mind discussing with other mechanics some of the dodgy repairs I've come across - and I've seen a good few, but I strongly believe in keeping criticism "within the family". Slagging off other garages/mechanics to customers is just so unprofessional and leads to support for the opinion many hold that garages rip people off! Rather than slag off a poorly done job to a customer or condemn a workshop (much as I'm tempted to do) If the task was one we couldn't handle I'd prefer to make a recommendation for a workshop which I know to be particularly capable for that make of vehicle or specific repair.


As I mentioned brake lube above and I know I'm always interested in what other people are using so I might mention that, after trying a number of other products, I find I really like this stuff: https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-140336-granville-ceramic-brake-grease.aspx - just in case anyone is interested.

Something I often found difficult was recommending a good bodyshop to a customer, albeit with a few excellent acceptations. The main reason was a paint job that looks great looking down on it , can be totally different from a view from a ramp looking upwards, where defects are more visible.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I have had similar aggro with a Honda outer CV joint not wanting to let go to fit a CV boot, in the end I took the whole shaft out, put it in a vice and as I tapped the inner end off, the outer just dropped off !!!

I was heavily into BL stuff in the early days which all had those type of retaining clips on their shafts and I've struggled with a few. Then my boy bought an Escort - having virtually trashed the old purple Panda you see in my avatar picture, which then became my "life's work" to reinstate - and was really surprised when it needed a CV boot that the circlip simply compressed with a pair of flat nosed circlip pliers allowing the joint to be pulled off the shaft really easily. Wonderful and so easy to do. I did several boots on that one and the later model escort he replaced it with by simply knocking out the bottom ball joint, removing the boot retaining clips, compressing the shaft circlip and pulling the hub with CV joint off the end of the shaft. Whole job done in about 15 minutes without breaking sweat.

 

[koalar]

@Sfrontato

Is this the method you used ?



And on a smaller vehicle

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Something I often found difficult was recommending a good bodyshop to a customer, albeit with a few excellent acceptations. The main reason was a paint job that looks great looking down on it , can be totally different from a view from a ramp looking upwards, where defects are more visible.

I've never had strong links to bodyshops but I do remember one case of interest. For a few years back in the late '70s I tried my hand at car sales - actually did quite well out of it but I really missed the workshop environment so packed it in and went back to the tools - Anyway, We had bought in a Mk3 Cortina GT - not one of my deals I'm glad to say - which was bright custard yellow in colour. Mechanically pretty sound but it's paintwork was very poor. My boss told me to take it down to our local wee body repair man to see what he could do with it. The recommendation was for a complete respray but there wasn't enough money in the car to be worth doing. Joe, the bodyshop guy, suggested spraying it with commercial vehicle enamel paint which he said is so thick it covers a multitude of sins, would only need one coat with minimal prep and comes up with a brilliant shine, and, he had some of just exactly (or near enough) that colour left over from another job so would do us a "special price". After a week or so of thought the boss agreed and about a week later I picked it up and parked it on the forecourt near the pumps, it looked absolutely wonderful! Couple of days later it sold and although I saw it a couple of times in following weeks at the pumps it soon disappeared and I never saw it again. I've no idea why but I remember that car just so well and I've often wondered what it's paint looked like after a few years.

 

[Sfrontato]

Yes Koalar, that's where I got the idea. But just used one loop as a noose round the driveshaft and wrapped the other end round the fork several times.

 

[koalar]

Yes Koalar, that's where I got the idea. But just used one loop as a noose round the driveshaft and wrapped the other end round the fork several times.

Cool
Quick
Cheap
Simple
Easy available
And we now know it’s effective

I like it not something I would have thought of in a million years

 

[bugsymike]

I've never had strong links to bodyshops but I do remember one case of interest. For a few years back in the late '70s I tried my hand at car sales - actually did quite well out of it but I really missed the workshop environment so packed it in and went back to the tools - Anyway, We had bought in a Mk3 Cortina GT - not one of my deals I'm glad to say - which was bright custard yellow in colour. Mechanically pretty sound but it's paintwork was very poor. My boss told me to take it down to our local wee body repair man to see what he could do with it. The recommendation was for a complete respray but there wasn't enough money in the car to be worth doing. Joe, the bodyshop guy, suggested spraying it with commercial vehicle enamel paint which he said is so thick it covers a multitude of sins, would only need one coat with minimal prep and comes up with a brilliant shine, and, he had some of just exactly (or near enough) that colour left over from another job so would do us a "special price". After a week or so of thought the boss agreed and about a week later I picked it up and parked it on the forecourt near the pumps, it looked absolutely wonderful! Couple of days later it sold and although I saw it a couple of times in following weeks at the pumps it soon disappeared and I never saw it again. I've no idea why but I remember that car just so well and I've often wondered what it's paint looked like after a few years.

Around that time a friend bought and sold commercials , transits and the like, he had a sprayer known as "Hot Pot" who would heat up a tin of househould gloss paint which would then flow beautifully when sprayed on and he could make a commercial look like new for £100 a time. Washing it was fine every time , but if you tried to T Cut and polish it would just go dull as it took all the shine away.
Before that I had a gunmetal grey faded HC Vauxhall Viva that was taxed and had twelve months Mot but I couldn't sell, a friend offered to give it a quick respray bright red and he put it on his forecourt, by then it had only six months Mot and no tax, but it sold for double what I had been asking, which shows how people buy cars on appearance only. Also why salesmen do all the bodywork up and polish etc. to sell a car then worry about any mechanical work required after it has been sold!
Re the inner drive shaft removal, I was usually working on my own, so I would jack the car up high and support it, then I had and still have, two 4 foot matching crowbars which I could tuck the ends in between the inner joint and gearbox, then with a little firm push the shaft would come out, the main thing being even pressure both sides.

 

[jrkitching]

a Mk3 Cortina GT

but it's paintwork was very poor.

The Mk3 was notorious for this. There was a great deal of industrial unrest back then, and more than a few bare steel Mk3 Cortina bodyshells were stored outside for a number of months. They weren't properly derusted before being sent for finishing, and Ford experienced a shedload of warranty claims for peeling paintwork. Some were in a dreadful state when barely a year old.

 

[Sfrontato]

Well done on sticking with it

I do feel your pain having to drop the gearbox yet again. Not nice in summer much worse in December

I do hope you at least get your money back on the clutch. Although I doubt they will compensate for the lost time

Update - cost of clutch was refunded by supplier without hassle. I'm not going to say who the supplier was, apart from that it was one of the better ones. As an amateur I don't feel entitled to go chasing for lost time - too many variables there.

Car still working well (bit better now bedded in?), apart from a pesky NS driveshaft oil seal leak. Will sort that on a nice sunny spring day!

 

[DaveMcT]

We are told that Fiat driveshaft inner CV joints are easy to remove with the large prybar. They probably are with the car well off the ground, but it's not true with the height you can safely get on axle stands. I spent at least an hour struggling with the bar slipping out. After hitting my head, gave up & made a tool for the job. It's a fork type ball joint separator, sliced lengthwise with and angle grinder and slitting disc(s). I welded in a suitable spacer from 5mm steel to get a suitable fork spacing. It works every time with a firm thump from a lump hammer. The second prong stops the wedge jumping out and you don't have to maul a heavy crowbar while lying on your back.

 

[DaveMcT]

Lifting the gearbox is a struggle single handed. Then it's an even bigger struggle to align everything so it will connect.

I used a steel box tube between the wings (sat on notched battens to spread the load). A ratchet tie-down strap went around the gearbox balance point. Lift the gearbox on the jack and take up soak in the strap. When it's high enough, the strap can slide on the steel tube while taking the weight. This lets you rotate the gearbox and it slips into place so easily its silly.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Car still working well (bit better now bedded in?), apart from a pesky NS driveshaft oil seal leak. Will sort that on a nice sunny spring day!

So pleased for you having got this fixed, well done. Regarding that oil leak. Take a very careful look at the gearchange shaft where it comes out of the top of the 'box. I thought both our 1.2 Panda and my boy's 1.4 Punto had leaky N/S driveshaft seals. I looked at his Punto first and, just by luck really, noticed the seal on the selector rod was leaking. Detailed examination then showed me it was oil from this dribbling down that was making me think it was the driveshaft seal which was leaking. It's not too difficult to do, the housing just unbolts from the top of the box although there is some "gubbins" to get out of the way to get at it and there's a roll pin to be driven out once you have it on the bench.

Once I'd dealt with the Punto I had a jolly good look at the Panda and, blow me, it was the same problem. If I hadn't found this I'd have done both gearbox seals and still had the leak! I haven't actually done the Panda yet as it's not leaking very much and, being our own car, I can keep a regular check on it. The Punto, being my boy's car, lives miles away on the other side of town and covers many more miles so I didn't want to leave it be. By the way, a small oil leak can look much worse than it is. I look after both these cars so know the gearbox oil level is checked at each service and neither was showing any detectable drop in gearbox oil level (maybe very slightly on the Punto but it could equally easily have been because I didn't have her completely level) although the leaks, especially on the Punto, looked like a lot of oil was being lost

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Lifting the gearbox is a struggle single handed. Then it's an even bigger struggle to align everything so it will connect.

I used a steel box tube between the wings (sat on notched battens to spread the load). A ratchet tie-down strap went around the gearbox balance point. Lift the gearbox on the jack and take up soak in the strap. When it's high enough, the strap can slide on the steel tube while taking the weight. This lets you rotate the gearbox and it slips into place so easily its silly.

I love that idea Dave. Don't suppose you've got a picture have you? I used to do it balanced on the jack - or, when I was younger, just wrestling with it - Now I find it difficult to just have the strength to keep it balance. So much so that I farmed the last one out to Kenny's garage and am still smarting at the money it cost me (even though his labour rates are very reasonable and no reason for me to feel ripped off in any way). I can imagine how you do this and I think it might let me do it again.

 

[DaveMcT]

I will have a picture when I do my brother's clutch. The diesel gearbox will be fitted before the lump goes back into the car.

But its pretty simple really. cut some 2x1 battens about 1 foot long (25 x 50 x 300mm for those who like big numbers). Plane a rebate down the wood so it can fit the wing gutter channel or slot down the length. A notch in the middle stops the steel tube rolling off. I had a box section, but round is just as good.

The strap goes under the gearbox and over the tube. It's not much good for lifting but it does allow you to jack up the gearbox, take up any slack in the strap, reset the jack with wood blocks and repeat until the gearbox is high enough. The big win is that the strap takes the gearbox weight while you rotate it to align the bolt holes. Get them aimed at each other and it all drops into place so easily. It's virtually the opposite of trying to manhandle it in all directions with no space to work and no way to see what's going on.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I will have a picture when I do my brother's clutch. The diesel gearbox will be fitted before the lump goes back into the car.

But its pretty simple really. cut some 2x1 battens about 1 foot long (25 x 50 x 300mm for those who like big numbers). Plane a rebate down the wood so it can fit the wing gutter channel or slot down the length. A notch in the middle stops the steel tube rolling off. I had a box section, but round is just as good.

The strap goes under the gearbox and over the tube. It's not much good for lifting but it does allow you to jack up the gearbox, take up any slack in the strap, reset the jack with wood blocks and repeat until the gearbox is high enough. The big win is that the strap takes the gearbox weight while you rotate it to align the bolt holes. Get them aimed at each other and it all drops into place so easily. It's virtually the opposite of trying to manhandle it in all directions with no space to work and no way to see what's going on.

Thanks Dave, I'm looking forward to seeing those pictures.

 

[Sfrontato]

So pleased for you having got this fixed, well done. Regarding that oil leak. Take a very careful look at the gearchange shaft where it comes out of the top of the 'box. I thought both our 1.2 Panda and my boy's 1.4 Punto had leaky N/S driveshaft seals. I looked at his Punto first and, just by luck really, noticed the seal on the selector rod was leaking. Detailed examination then showed me it was oil from this dribbling down that was making me think it was the driveshaft seal which was leaking. It's not too difficult to do, the housing just unbolts from the top of the box although there is some "gubbins" to get out of the way to get at it and there's a roll pin to be driven out once you have it on the bench.

Once I'd dealt with the Punto I had a jolly good look at the Panda and, blow me, it was the same problem. If I hadn't found this I'd have done both gearbox seals and still had the leak! I haven't actually done the Panda yet as it's not leaking very much and, being our own car, I can keep a regular check on it. The Punto, being my boy's car, lives miles away on the other side of town and covers many more miles so I didn't want to leave it be. By the way, a small oil leak can look much worse than it is. I look after both these cars so know the gearbox oil level is checked at each service and neither was showing any detectable drop in gearbox oil level (maybe very slightly on the Punto but it could equally easily have been because I didn't have her completely level) although the leaks, especially on the Punto, looked like a lot of oil was being lost

Thanks Puggit, defintitely hoping the driveshaft leak will be in the ‘not worthing doing category’. It’s not the selector shaft - I did the replacement whilst the ’box was out. The selector shaft had been leaking for a long time, and I agree it makes a right mess lower down.

Installing the gearbox was entertaining, without DaveMcT’s sensible solution. More YouTubing revealed a mobile clutch fitter who produces excellent videos of his craft (Kevin-Albert Williams). For Panda, at least, gearbox on tummy, feet flat on floor, then raise bum up. Surprising amount of control in the lift, but needs the jack height of the car just right. I got lucky. Had a backup in my head along the lines of DAveMcT’s description, but never needed it. The YouTube guy is pretty sturdy, I’m not.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks Puggit, defintitely hoping the driveshaft leak will be in the ‘not worthing doing category’. It’s not the selector shaft - I did the replacement whilst the ’box was out. The selector shaft had been leaking for a long time, and I agree it makes a right mess lower down.

Installing the gearbox was entertaining, without DaveMcT’s sensible solution. More YouTubing revealed a mobile clutch fitter who produces excellent videos of his craft (Kevin-Albert Williams). For Panda, at least, gearbox on tummy, feet flat on floor, then raise bum up. Surprising amount of control in the lift, but needs the jack height of the car just right. I got lucky. Had a backup in my head along the lines of DAveMcT’s description, but never needed it. The YouTube guy is pretty sturdy, I’m not.

Working on my own, without a ramp for most of the time and on site at times, up until I reached 60 some years ago the method as described above I have used on a variety of vehicles, including Citroen Relay/Ducato 2.8 and RWD Iveco Daily etc. As it got too much, balancing gearbox on a commercial car jack where possible helped. A reasonable amount of upper body strength acquired over the years, along with the need to feed my family helped of course, although with old age I am probably paying for it now.
The engine was always supported by a professional support along the lines of what DaveMcT made that had an adjustable height thread allowing the engine to be lowered or raised to allow clearance of the gearbox/final drive etc. to clear subframe.
The other important thing is to make damn sure you have aligned the clutch on the flywheel correctly as with all the effort involved you want to know the gearbox will slide nicely onto the clutch splines !!!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Installing the gearbox was entertaining, without DaveMcT’s sensible solution. More YouTubing revealed a mobile clutch fitter who produces excellent videos of his craft (Kevin-Albert Williams). For Panda, at least, gearbox on tummy, feet flat on floor, then raise bum up. Surprising amount of control in the lift, but needs the jack height of the car just right. I got lucky. Had a backup in my head along the lines of DAveMcT’s description, but never needed it. The YouTube guy is pretty sturdy, I’m not.

Been there, done that, so many times. Mostly used this method on RWD, tended to balance the 'box on a large trolley jack for FWD stuff, but it can fall off. Much easier if you have a helper - who doesn't need to necessarily have any mechanical knowledge, you just need the extra hands. Never managed to get Mrs j to do more than assist with brake bleeding as a pedal pumper though!

Working on my own, without a ramp for most of the time and on site at times, up until I reached 60 some years ago the method as described above I have used on a variety of vehicles, including Citroen Relay/Ducato 2.8 and RWD Iveco Daily etc. As it got too much, balancing gearbox on a commercial car jack where possible helped. A reasonable amount of upper body strength acquired over the years, along with the need to feed my family helped of course, although with old age I am probably paying for it now.
The engine was always supported by a professional support along the lines of what DaveMcT made that had an adjustable height thread allowing the engine to be lowered or raised to allow clearance of the gearbox/final drive etc. to clear subframe.
The other important thing is to make damn sure you have aligned the clutch on the flywheel correctly as with all the effort involved you want to know the gearbox will slide nicely onto the clutch splines !!!

I've wondered, more than once, how well one of those gearbox supports you can buy for trolley jacks might work: https://dirtyprotools.co.uk/product...rbox-trolley-jack-cradle-support-plate-500-kg

I badly need to do a "personal reappraisal" of what it's reasonable to aspire to do now considering my age and increasing "frailty". I'm not at all what you would call "frail" but I've had several experiences of late which have really brought home to me how I'm not the invulnerable, strong chap I used to be. If I do take on putting a new back axle into Becky this spring/summer I think it may be the last big "physical" job I do. Mrs J is trying to dissuade me but every time I think about it I just feel "You can do that Jock, it's a comparatively small job compared to what you would have taken on even 5 years ago" but then I think about my shoulder (rotator cuff injury) - hernia repair - spinal surgery some years ago - and other age related stuff and I think maybe your Mrs is right you old fool! Maybe I just need to "get real" as my kids would say.

Thinking about lining up the splines, Of course it's crucial to have the driven plate aligned very accurately with the centre of the flywheel but, thinking about it just now, Wasn't it easier on the FWD stuff where you could select a gear and then twiddle the output shaft on the back end of the gearbox so that the input shaft rotated as you fed it into the driven plate and lined up the splines. Difficult to do that on most FWD stuff I can think of?