500 (Classic) Capital 500N project

[the hobbler]

Hey forum members

I have decided to start a blog about my new little project. 1958 500n that has been in Australia capital it's entire life.
The car was owned by 1 owner and after passing away the car hasn't moved under its own power, living in a garage from the 90s until now.
I have a 500f in great condition but this is my first time tackling a N model so hoping for plenty of advice and help. Would love to hear about peoples opinions on whether to keep the car with it's patina but fix the rust, rebuild the engine or get it going first to analyze it's state and any other suggestions, let's make this an engaging journey.
For the time being here are some photos of the little guy and some of its war wounds.


View attachment 426092

In case your wondering, the garage in the background is the one the little car has been since the 90s

Well done for rescuing this little car. The photo shows that the body isn't in too bad a condition, so I would suggest that you initiallyconcentrate on getting it running and checking it over mechanically. If you can get the engine running and the brakes etc work then it will be worthwhile getting the body into asound condition. As to how far you go with the body is a very personal thing, but i would be tempted to keep it as original as possible comensurate with safety

 

[Bigvtwin996]

remember if it has the original engine 110.xxxxxxxxxx then very little from later car engines will fit so make sure you buy N parts....
Also N panels are specific too...
there are some things you can do to pep it up a bit should it need a rebuild without swapping for a later lump....
looks an early car Pre 59
if you want to pm me the chassis number and engine number I can try and get an approximate date of production...

 

[dtorreal]

remember if it has the original engine 110.xxxxxxxxxx then very little from later car engines will fit so make sure you buy N parts....
Also N panels are specific too...
there are some things you can do to pep it up a bit should it need a rebuild without swapping for a later lump....
looks an early car Pre 59
if you want to pm me the chassis number and engine number I can try and get an approximate date of production...

The car is a 58.
Very keen in understanding how i can prep it up as i have gone through it now and all the seals are dry with oil all over the engine and bell housing. Engine turns over under its own power but very slowly and i dont see a spark.
would also like to understand any pitfalls when getting parts as i have seen some pages like https://webshop.fiat500126.com/en try to reference if the part is an N or not but others just say 500.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

Speak to Andrea at Passione500 he owns a 500N and has stuff other dealers do not for N's
won't be much difference in price shippig wise...
He does not update his webshop very often bu will have teh stuff most other suppliers hold as many buy from him...

 

[dtorreal]

Speak to Andrea at Passione500 he owns a 500N and has stuff other dealers do not for N's
won't be much difference in price shippig wise...
He does not update his webshop very often bu will have teh stuff most other suppliers hold as many buy from him...

Thanks. I will definitely do that.

So an update for everyone. I have gone through the car and put a battery on to it. Hooray, it turn over.
Checked and i'm not getting any power past the starter motor so that will be the next thing to tackle.

The decision has been made to get the car going as its free, and the old oil was in a good state.

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

Hi DT, Because it's an original 58N I would treat it carefully and change the oil, you never know how long it's been stood and how old the oil is - for the sake of a few litres of oil??????
Ian.

 

[the hobbler]

Hi DT, Because it's an original 58N I would treat it carefully and change the oil, you never know how long it's been stood and how old the oil is - for the sake of a few litres of oil??????
Ian.

I totally agree with Ian (bleeding knuckles)---oil is to a point hydroscopic,so if it has been sitting around for a long time, it will probably have a good percentage of it as water. 3-1/2pints for a standard 'tin' sump---a good quality 20/50 oil will suffice.

 

[dtorreal]

I should of been more specific. When i meant the oil is good i meant there was no shine/metal to it, no visible sludge/water, no prominent smell of fuel.

Oil has already been changed with high mineral oil for testing purposes. This will also be discarded once i rebuild the engine.

I have a question for the forum. When putting on a battery to the car and turning the key i do not get any lights on the dash. Motor turns over but very slowly without firing. I checked voltage at both coil and generator and i have no trace of any. I have checked all the wires and they are still connected and in fairly good condition besides grime. Could this be a voltage regulator issue?

 

[Bigvtwin996]

I would say having stood for so long...
every electrical connection needs checking and cleaning....
the main feed to the fusebox can corrode (I had that and that was just sanding over winter)

Engine Rebuild - crank bearings are N specific, later will bit but they don't fit corretly

 

[fiat500]

I should of been more specific. When i meant the oil is good i meant there was no shine/metal to it, no visible sludge/water, no prominent smell of fuel.

Oil has already been changed with high mineral oil for testing purposes. This will also be discarded once i rebuild the engine.

I have a question for the forum. When putting on a battery to the car and turning the key i do not get any lights on the dash. Motor turns over but very slowly without firing. I checked voltage at both coil and generator and i have no trace of any. I have checked all the wires and they are still connected and in fairly good condition besides grime. Could this be a voltage regulator issue?

If the car has been abandoned for a long time there might be problems with the contacts to or iside the VR. But more likely you have bad contacts at the connections to the ignition switch or inside the switch.

As the starter on a 500 works independently of the ignition, to check for a spark you could temporarily jump a 12v supply to the coil, either direct from the battery or via the main supply to the starter. Both methods require care, but you ill now have the potential for ignition that is independent of the dashboard switch.

Unlike the later cars, the N has a + supply wire that goes to the ignition switch via a shared terminal on the fusebox (it doesn't actually pass via a fuse). I agree with @Bigvtwin996 that you probably have dirty or corroded contacts or possibly a missing cable or terminals. The ignition switch internal contacts can also get tarnished but it's fairly easy to overhaul.

 

[dtorreal]

Hi All

I have been very busy with work, finishing the year but i thought i would give you all an update.
I never was able to start the motor. After changing the oil and running some mystery oil down the cylinders she never fired. There were puffs every now and again and it would turn over but very slow. Cleaning all the terminals didnt really help and knowing that the engine needed a strip down i decided to stop spending time doing that.

The car tear down has been going well but slow. I have most of the car torn down yet still need the suspension, transmission and doors. So far there hasnt been much that has surprised me except that the floor brace are covered in dried dirt which at one stage must of been mud. Not sure where this car has been but i'm guessing it was driven over mud.

I'm getting close to the stage of working on the body, specifically the old paint before we begin the body work. I wanted to ask the forum what people thought was the best way to strip the paint on these little guys.

Sandblasting seems like a fairly common option with some challenges such as warping and grit being left throughout the car. We have a very specialised sandblaster near me that has done high end cars so i know he knows what he is doing.

Others have mentioned chemical dipping. I have heard that everything is guaranteed to be removed but i also have heard that there is some residual left, sometimes which has reacted with paint.

Finally others have mentioned to do it myself with getting a sandblaster to finish some of the hard to reach areas.

I would like to hear from others how they have tackled this process and see what pros and cons the process has.

Here are some photos to show people how its going along

 

[Bigvtwin996]

Dont chemically dip!!!!
it is great at removing paint etc... but....
if the shell sits in a tank for 1-2 hours the chemicals seep deep into the seams... when it is neutralised... it is usually dipped for 15-20 mins...
there is no way the neutraliser will get completely into the seams...
I knew a guy who had been blasting shells for 40 years.. he started in the USA blasting jet fighters!!! he had a collection of photos of chemicals leaching out of seams after 5+ years
If you can find someone to plastic blast it that will not warp panels, you need BIG CFM and HUGE Nozzles, when done you basically go over the real rusty bits with fine Aluminium oxide or glass...

when it has been blasted a high pressure last hose a long probe and several hours of blasting all the orrifices should get any media out....

for some idea of HUGE CFM- his compressor was 250 CFM!!!

wit plastic youi can actually blast a shell with the glass and rubbers still in....
Somethg he used to do was actually bare metal a shell without stripping it down, they would mask off shut lines, ait intakes etc...
they would blast the car, then hand finish the shut lines etc and te esell couple be repainted..

Look for a Product called Zinger and see if you can find someone aproved to apply it, they will offer a warranty against corosion... it is a galvanizing paint, but unlike most it will acccept std primers and automotiove top coats..

 

[Bounding Bambino]

I also 2nd the notion of avoiding chemical stripping.

Before doing my car, i did alot of research, and the main consensus was, if you chemical dip, you need to make sure they neutralize it properly afterwards. The stripper gets into all the seams, and will stay there. Years will go by once you are done the car, and paint will begin to peel and bubble around the seams (door flanges, etc).

I decided to fully manually strip my entire car using 3m stripping discs, they worked wonders, and didnt warp the panels with heat that could be caused my media blasting if someone is too ambitious. Doing a large car, obviously the disks would be a hard and long process, but the fiat, honestly wasn't too bad. did the entire car with about 10 disks.

Using a phosphoric acid based car treatment for hard to reach places as a rust neutralizer and surface prep also does wonders for hard to clean out seams and fresh metal.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

ohh and it is nice to see a flat floor car with what looks like the original floor pans...
for those that are interested...
the 500 was only homologated as a 2 seater so as not to compete with the 600,hence no footwell recess in the rear floor, the rear stepup was actually higher as well, a there were no seats just a rubber covering, for stacking your suit cases, however it was possible for small children to perch on this step for sort journeys..

and if you want another major difference..
this is a early indicator dash switch

Pardon our interruption...

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

Steady BigV, remember your blood pressure!!!
Ian.

 

[dtorreal]

ohh and it is nice to see a flat floor car with what looks like the original floor pans...
for those that are interested...
the 500 was only homologated as a 2 seater so as not to compete with the 600,hence no footwell recess in the rear floor, the rear stepup was actually higher as well, a there were no seats just a rubber covering, for stacking your suit cases, however it was possible for small children to perch on this step for sort journeys..

and if you want another major difference..
this is a early indicator dash switch

Pardon our interruption...

Thanks for the information. I will check the switch next time i'm with the car but it does look familiar.

How are you able to tell that they are original floors? The colour on the floors doesnt match the car so i thought they had been replaced or possibly worked on before. I have been looking at replacing them with new N floors but if there is a reason not too i will go through the process of patching up the current ones. The rust isnt terrible but i believe the intricate work i will need to do around the seat rails will make it a pain in the A.

 

[fiat500]

Thanks for the information. I will check the switch next time i'm with the car but it does look familiar.

How are you able to tell that they are original floors? The colour on the floors doesnt match the car so i thought they had been replaced or possibly worked on before. I have been looking at replacing them with new N floors but if there is a reason not too i will go through the process of patching up the current ones. The rust isnt terrible but i believe the intricate work i will need to do around the seat rails will make it a pain in the A.

It's worth it and very do-able once you look closely and see how simple the construction is. The seat rails and floor supports can be bought separately if they are the same or similar to the later cars. Your cars looks in amazing condition for the age, so skilled patching would be preferable and will keep the integrity.

 

[fiat500]

Steady BigV, remember your blood pressure!!!
Ian.

When he's high on Fiat 500 adre"N"aline, that's when his circulation gets its best workout.... Keep the information flowing @Bigvtwin996.

 

[dtorreal]

Back with an update for all you keen 500N followers.

Car is stripped and is ready for the stripping process. I have decided to not dip the car considering in Australia the process takes about a month as will cost me more than $5K Australian. Looks like it will be media blasting or strip disc, leaning to the former as the preferred option.

I have also decided to wait until the car has been stripped before i make a decision on whether to repair or replace panels. I'm guessing that when i strip it there will be no surprises and i will be able to determine what needs to be done.

In regards to the engine i believe that it will need a rebuild or at least a freshen up. I have leaks in almost all the seals and the transmission is especially oily.

Thats it for the time being. Hope to have a photo for you all after its fully blasted or at the beginning of the manual stripping process