Punto (Mk1) Project R the Mk1 Cabrio Restoration project

[AndyRKett]

Started to tackle some jobs on the Punto finally. thought I would look at the spark plugs first.

Found that one of the spark plugs had a broken core. Looks like someone had tried to twist the cap off as there were witness marks in the cap consistent with someone griping it with a pair of pliers.

While I had the Plugs out I opted to drop a scope in and see what state the cylinders were in.
and it wasn't great.
There was a fair bit of surface rust on the tops of the pistons (except the one with the broken plug which had been protected from rust with unburnt fuel.


What I did however find is a bit of a mystery.

It looks like quite a large chunk of metal? It is not from around the piston, nor any of the other pistons and migrated into the cylinder. There is no visible damage to the piston top. it is not magnetic so unlikely to be part of the valve(s) anyone have any idea what this is ? I think I may have to take the head off and take a proper look. I had been wondering if I would need to do some significant engine work on the car as it seems so lacking in power. what I half wonder is if this is part of a valve seat?

I should add this is a interference 16V engine, so I would expect anything in the cylinder to have caused significant damage.

 

[bugsymike]

I couldn't tell from the size , but the shape is a little like the earth electrode of a spark plug, but you say non magnetic.
Have you been able to do a compression test?

 

[AndyRKett]

I don't have a compression tester at the moment to be able to check that. I am half considering taking the head off anyway, as those pistons look a right mess with corrosion it may be the valves are in a similar state and unable to seal properly.

Edit: Just ordered a compression tester for £15 off amazon which should arrive Friday.

 

[bugsymike]

I don't have a compression tester at the moment to be able to check that. I am half considering taking the head off anyway, as those pistons look a right mess with corrosion it may be the valves are in a similar state and unable to seal properly.

Edit: Just ordered a compression tester for £15 off amazon which should arrive Friday.

That's good, if readings are low then it may be useful to do a dry and wet test (add a little oil down bores to see if readings increase indicating piston/bore wear) hopefully not.
Is there much history with car?

 

[AndyRKett]

That's good, if readings are low then it may be useful to do a dry and wet test (add a little oil down bores to see if readings increase indicating piston/bore wear) hopefully not.
Is there much history with car?

Zero history with the car. Nothing nadda, not even a service manual. The only thing I have is the MOT history on the DVLA website.

I have tried everything I can to remove this piece of whatever it is, I can move it around with the camera on the scope. I can poke it with a pick and move it. I have a magnet attachment for the scope but that won't pick it up. I tried using a long piece of tape pushed down into the cylinder sticky side out, while holding on to the ends so as not to lose the tape in their as well, but have not been successful in fishing it out, I think the only option now is to take off the exhaust manifold or the inlet manifold and try and get it out via the valves. I suppose it would not hurt to eyeball the valve seats and make sure nothing is missing.

One suggestion I have had is that it could be a piece of carbon deposit that has broken off due to running the car on cheap fuel with a higher octane rating, that being said I don't suspect the bloke I bought it off, had put super unleaded in it anyway.

 

[bugsymike]

Would it be possible with a tube to use suction, if the object could be brought in line with the plug hole? I hesitate to suggest orally(otherwise known as the Linda Lovelace method) I was thinking perhaps a vacuum brake bleeder, a vacuum oil drainer or vacuum cleaner, though the last two may make it hard to inspect the object once retrieved.
Or maybe a dollop of thick grease or cooking butter on a stick?
Curious that it is non magnetic.
I suspect trying to access via a valve would be even harder, I assume piston is fairly near TDC?

 

[s130]

Have you tried to vacuum it out? House hoover with a smaller hose taped on and a pieice of cloth / duster just to catch the object piece at the main hoover hose.

I was originally thinking it was a piece of piston ring stuck/bashed into the top of the piston till I head your said you could move it around.

 

[bugsymike]

Have you tried to vacuum it out? House hoover with a smaller hose taped on and a pieice of cloth / duster just to catch the object piece at the main hoover hose.

I was originally thinking it was a piece of piston ring stuck/bashed into the top of the piston till I head your said you could move it around.

I hadn't thought of the cloth to catch it.

 

[s130]

Would it be possible with a tube to use suction, if the object could be brought in line with the plug hole? I hesitate to suggest orally(otherwise known as the Linda Lovelace method) I was thinking perhaps a vacuum brake bleeder, a vacuum oil drainer or vacuum cleaner, though the last two may make it hard to inspect the object once retrieved.
Or maybe a dollop of thick grease or cooking butter on a stick?
Curious that it is non magnetic.
I suspect trying to access via a valve would be even harder, I assume piston is fairly near TDC?

I see you beat me to the "suck it and see" @bugsymike

 

[vexorg]

It does look like a bit of earth terminal to me too.

You could try just turn it over with no plugs and it night get blown out.

 

[AndyRKett]

So I had tried running it with the plugs out and also found a narrow tube which would fit through the plug hole to try and vacuum it out. I did this in my frustration a few days ago to remove whatever it is.

Anyway the results are in of the Compression Test and are as follows

Cylinder 1 180 psi
Cylinder 2 175 psi*
Cylinder 3 180 psi
Cylinder 4 180 psi and the location of the debris.

Now the keen eyes among you may have noticed the star by cylinder 2, this is because that is the best reading but I was not able to get a consistent reading. Sometimes it would be as low as 145 psi 150 155, I ran multiple tests and was getting different results, it was as we say in medicine "consistently inconsistent" So there is definitely something going on in number 2. I am thinking a vavle is sticking or not able to close fully. It was piston 2 in the pictures above which shows some considerable surface rust on the top of the piston, so it maybe this valve was left open for a long time in cold damp weather and potentially there is also surface rust on the valve seat?

I did put a drop of oil into cylinder 2 to see if it would improve things and got 225 PSI but only had time to do this once so not able to check to see if it was still inconsistent, and not able to check the others. That said I did run the engine afterwards quickly to burn off that oil and found what I assume to be a fairly considerable leak on the exhaust manifold, with the extra smoke caused by the oil burning off. (and no I didn't spill any oil. So this is yet another potential issue when it comes to the power. If I have to take the exhaust manifold off to change the gasket. Then I suppose I can get a good look at the top of the valves.

 

[bugsymike]

Were you able to trap and identify the debris in No.4?
Strange the variation on No.2 readings, does that series engine have hydraulic tappets if suspect, occasional tapping from valve gear, possible worse when cold before oil gets around properly, or possibly a sticking valve or broken/weak valve spring?
The average 180psi seems quite good to me, the much higher reading with the oil maybe suggests a little too generous? I generally give a few squirts of my engine oil can, let it run down past the piston rings for a few minutes, then spin engine over with plugs out and a rag across the plug holes as can be a bit messy and finally do the compression test.
I once loaned a diesel compression tester to a friend who had trained as a mechanic with me before his health deteriorated, he may have been doing the oil test I do not know for sure, or tested only at that cylinder with other injectors still in and engine fired? But it destroyed the tester right off the scale. In his defence he very kindly bought me a nearly new, much better Sykes Pickavant version.
By the way I like the medical term "consistently inconsistent" a bit like the "contraindications" which to a layman like me means side effects of a medicine ot treatment etc.

 

[vexorg]

Sounds like the head is coming off

 

[AndyRKett]

to me, the much higher reading with the oil maybe suggests a little too generous?

Quite possible, I was in a hurry and didn't measure it. I poured it from an oil can.

"contraindications"

Contraindication, is when you prescribe one medication with another medication and then the combination of the two makes the person more unwell medication A and medication B cannot be used together, they are contraindicated.

Sounds like the head is coming off

may be worth me pulling the cam cover first, and the exhaust manifold. I have still not been able to remove or identify the piece of debris so maybe in doing that I can get it out. one of the main barriers I have at the moment is how deep the plug holes are, means it is difficult to get the scope into the side/edges of the piston so with the cam cover removed I will have better access, I also have the option of the exhaust valves to try and get at it.

Not sure if this engine uses hydraulic tappets or not that will become apparent with the cam cover off.

One thing I have spotted is looking in the oil fill port the condition of the engine internals may be pretty messy. hard to explain but I will try and get a picture, it looks a mess it is partly this that makes me think I might have a sticking valve.

When I picked up the car it took a good 50 miles before I was able to push it past 60 on the motorway, then it slowly improved after that, it is supposed to be able to do 106mph top speed but there is no way it could currently do anywhere near that. I did try a 0-60 test and what is supposed to take 12 seconds took a little over 20 seconds, so the engine is not happy.

That being said with new plugs installed and running it, it would pass the Rolls Royce test of balancing a pound coin on its edge and it wouldn't move or fall over. The engine is amazingly smooth when running, which is even more confusing.

 

[AndyRKett]

It’s not a great view but does not look good inside the engine

 

[StevenRB45]

If memory serves they are hydraulic tappets in the superfire....

Also that's a significant amount of crap assuming that's the oil cap it may have been serviced once this century..

 

[AndyRKett]

If memory serves they are hydraulic tappets in the superfire....

Also that's a significant amount of crap assuming that's the oil cap it may have been serviced once this century..

That is indeed the oil cap. I am thinking that while this car has been loved at some point in the past, it certainly hasn't for the last few years. I'd not be surprised to find out that it's not been serviced for 4 or 5 years or more.

 

[AndyRKett]

Mistakes were made….

I don’t wanna talk about it

 

[StevenRB45]

Where's the mistake? All I'm seeing is extensive usage of self applying rust proofing. Most Fiats of this era came with it as a standard feature.

Also will it's deployment be featuring on YouTube?