Punto (Mk1) Project R the Mk1 Cabrio Restoration project

[AnthonyH]

The motor below I took off my 2008 Grande Punto. The regulator that replaced it cost me £30 new, if you buy a new item then you can return it without fuss, vendors will be more sniffy if you try to return a used item. So you could buy several new and return most of them, and hope to get lucky.

If you're sure the MK2 Punto motor is the same, then its the best starting point, new or second hand.

 

[Punto1cab]

The motor below I took off my 2008 Grande Punto. The regulator that replaced it cost me £30 new, if you buy a new item then you can return it without fuss, vendors will be more sniffy if you try to return a used item. So you could buy several new and return most of them, and hope to get lucky.

If you're sure the MK2 Punto motor is the same, then its the best starting point, new or second hand.

Our "S" reg Cabrio has had glacial front windows from new . I use silicone spray on the runners and that helps a bit (as does using them with the engine running!). 25 years of ownership suggests "They are all like that sir/madam!". I hadn't heard of the runner adjustment screw though... I thought Mr Bertone knew what he was doing. I'll live with it...the rear ones have always been fine. Took it to the 90's evening at Caffeine and the Machine last Monday. They parked us right at the front! The joy of rarity!

 

[AnthonyH]

Our "S" reg Cabrio has had glacial front windows from new .

You have just jogged my memory...I wish I could remember which car I'd seen this on back in the day

Took it to the 90's evening at Caffeine and the Machine last Monday. They parked us right at the front! The joy of rarity!

I had to google for Caffeine and the Machine. I'm more used to bump starting cars, strapping the exhaust up with garden wire and using duct tape to prevent leaks lol

 

[AndyRKett]

Our "S" reg Cabrio has had glacial front windows from new . I use silicone spray on the runners and that helps a bit (as does using them with the engine running!). 25 years of ownership suggests "They are all like that sir/madam!". I hadn't heard of the runner adjustment screw though... I thought Mr Bertone knew what he was doing. I'll live with it...the rear ones have always been fine. Took it to the 90's evening at Caffeine and the Machine last Monday. They parked us right at the front! The joy of rarity!

I could get it all moving quite quickly off the car as soon as everything was back in the windows are super slow again.

There are little bolts that secure the bottom part of the runner's tp the door, they have a head for a flat head screw driver in the middle of the bolt so you can loosen off the nut, then turn the screw to move the window runner in and out, there are 3 one on the bottom of each runner and one on the bottom of the window winder mechanism. Interesting to find out this might just be how they were made when new. There is a lot of resistance in the runners, the regulator and any twist in the door will also pinch the window and slow it down. Its a really overly complicated design but I suspect that's just the way with frameless windows

 

[AnthonyH]

It appears to me that these windows were deliberately slowed down to prevent a design fault becoming a major problem.

Probably a quicker motor caused jamming, or scratching or breakages.

Motors are pretty simple so you could buy a higher powered one and put a variable resistor with it, then change how much power you want the window to have, and generally test it to make sure nothing bad is going to happen.

 

[AndyRKett]

Retarded cam possibly? Don't know whether it'd show on the compression test.
Note, a vacuum gage can be very revealing
regards,
nick

I think you called it

gonna put this here and see what you think


I think if my understanding of the timing set up of these engines is with the timing tools in place the pistons should all be level In the mid bore position.

I have not taken the bottom pulley off, I have the tool to time the bottom end but eyeballing it the bottom end looks to be about 1 maybe 2 teeth out on the cam belt.

We may have gotten to the bottom of the lack of power.

Now that being said I think due diligence means I need to take the head off and make sure the valves are ok and the tops of the pistons don’t show any witness marks

 

[bugsymike]

I think you called it

gonna put this here and see what you think


I think if my understanding of the timing set up of these engines is with the timing tools in place the pistons should all be level In the mid bore position.

I have not taken the bottom pulley off, I have the tool to time the bottom end but eyeballing it the bottom end looks to be about 1 maybe 2 teeth out on the cam belt.

We may have gotten to the bottom of the lack of power.

Now that being said I think due diligence means I need to take the head off and make sure the valves are ok and the tops of the pistons don’t show any witness marks

Regardless of the cam timing positions, surely unless there is a major crank shaft/conrod/piston damage issue, then two pistons should be in the same position on a four cylinder engine , as in two up and two down but equally.
However I see in the video he is testing position on 1 and 3 which seems odd to me, as bound to be different. As in 1 and 4 or 2 and 3 should match.
If he tested 1 & 4 or 2 & 3 piston position they should match.?
With cylinder head removed on a four cylinder engine it is easy to see.
Attached is a simple three main bearing crank where it is obvious the two outer big ends and the two inner big end positions correspond.
So my argument is that the crankshaft and conrods control piston position rather than cam shafts. Obviously cam timing can be out in relation to the piston position. Maybe I am misunderstanding the point being put over?

 

[AndyRKett]

Regardless of the cam timing positions, surely unless there is a major crank shaft/conrod/piston damage issue, then two pistons should be in the same position on a four cylinder engine , as in two up and two down but equally.
However I see in the video he is testing position on 1 and 3 which seems odd to me, as bound to be different. As in 1 and 4 or 2 and 3 should match.
If he tested 1 & 4 or 2 & 3 piston position they should match.?
With cylinder head removed on a four cylinder engine it is easy to see.
Attached is a simple three main bearing crank where it is obvious the two outer big ends and the two inner big end positions correspond.

View attachment 439124

So that is me in the video and my engine.

1 and 4 should always be at the same height, as should 2 and 3, but with the timing tools on this engine. you don't time to tdc, you time to the mid stroke position. so with the cams locked all 4 pistons should be in alignment in the bores. If not then the crank shaft has rotated past that mid stroke point and some are on the way up and others on the way down. In this case 2 and 3 (althought only 3 is being measured) are sitting higher than 1 and 4. (in the video only 1 is being measured) So the crank shaft is out of phase with the cams by a degree or two.

I think in re-reading your post we are saying the same thing, basically the cams are both locked, the bottom end is not however in the correct position.

as you say unless there is major damage in with the crank or con rods, then 1 and 4, 2 and 3 would always be in the same position and so that measurement is not important to the timing of the engine, in this case the difference between the two pairs 1&4 and 2&3 is what tells us the timing is out.

 

[bugsymike]

So that is me in the video and my engine.

1 and 4 should always be at the same height, as should 2 and 3, but with the timing tools on this engine. you don't time to tdc, you time to the mid stroke position. so with the cams locked all 4 pistons should be in alignment in the bores. If not then the crank shaft has rotated past that mid stroke point and some are on the way up and others on the way down. In this case 2 and 3 (althought only 3 is being measured) are sitting higher than 1 and 4. (in the video only 1 is being measured) So the crank shaft is out of phase with the cams by a degree or two.

I think in re-reading your post we are saying the same thing, basically the cams are both locked, the bottom end is not however in the correct position.

as you say unless there is major damage in with the crank or con rods, then 1 and 4, 2 and 3 would always be in the same position and so that measurement is not important to the timing of the engine, in this case the difference between the two pairs 1&4 and 2&3 is what tells us the timing is out.

Oh! I see what you are saying, I appreciate it is not timed at TDC something many manufacturers do these days to prevent damage whilst timing engines. What threw me was the height measuring of 1 and 3 .
Depending on what point they are timed one piston would be going down on it's travel and the other raising up, this may cause an unequal position depending on con rod design/offset.
From a point of testing crank/conrod/piston issue I would put engine at TDC on no 1 and compare the height gauges of 1 and 4, then do the same on 2 and 3, If no damage they should all be the same height at the top of their travel.
Where I have seen this vary is particularly on diesels where cam belt has broken and valves have met the piston thereby bending/shortening the conrod by a few mm.
The only other time was on three cylinder Wartburg twostrokes with pressed together crankshafts that had moved, in that case we had to send crank for reconditioning at Alfa bearings in Dudley who also supplied racing parts for competition Karts.
I found that out as on those you fit three sets of contact points , gap them and then time them individually and the timing marks on the crank pulley didn't match piston position.

 

[AndyRKett]

you are of course correct I should as a matter of precaution check the heights of 1/4 and 2/3 to make sure there is nothing untoward going on, I had just taken it for granted these would be ok.

As the timing is out it does explain possibly the slight lack of power, the engine runs very well and smoothly for the most part but if you leave it to idle once warm and you leave it, it is possible to hear/detect an ever so slight pulsing in the engine revs which I suspect is down to it being very slightly out of time

 

[bugsymike]

you are of course correct I should as a matter of precaution check the heights of 1/4 and 2/3 to make sure there is nothing untoward going on, I had just taken it for granted these would be ok.

As the timing is out it does explain possibly the slight lack of power, the engine runs very well and smoothly for the most part but if you leave it to idle once warm and you leave it, it is possible to hear/detect an ever so slight pulsing in the engine revs which I suspect is down to it being very slightly out of time

You would have to be pretty unlucky for anything like that, however you don't know what other owners have been up to.
It was mainly diesels I saw it on, mind you I haven't heard it running.

 

[AndyRKett]

So I had a quick couple of minutes so popped the bottom timing tool into place and as is proven the bottom end is maybe one tooth off alignment. The bright silver bolt should thread into that hold in the crank case but is quite some distance off. Certainly more than normal tolerances, and definitely enough to cause a serious lack of power.

Now I don’t have any service history for this car but the water pump and cambelt don’t look that old, they will be getting replaced anyway but I wonder if the last person to work on it just threw it together without using any locking tools. I’ve been reading @Pugglt Auld Jock’s posts on another thread about timing these engines and it seems it’s not very hard to get it wrong… or right.

 

[bugsymike]

So I had a quick couple of minutes so popped the bottom timing tool into place and as is proven the bottom end is maybe one tooth off alignment. The bright silver bolt should thread into that hold in the crank case but is quite some distance off. Certainly more than normal tolerances, and definitely enough to cause a serious lack of power.
View attachment 439143
Now I don’t have any service history for this car but the water pump and cambelt don’t look that old, they will be getting replaced anyway but I wonder if the last person to work on it just threw it together without using any locking tools. I’ve been reading @Pugglt Auld Jock’s posts on another thread about timing these engines and it seems it’s not very hard to get it wrong… or right.

Seems a long way out, can it be that far adrift and still run without hitting anything? Your compression readings were not too far out were they?
Still as long as you are careful and turn engine over several revolutions by hand before trying to start then should be damage free.
Can't say it is one I have worked on.

 

[AndyRKett]

Amazing it still ran and reasonably well, just lacking power.

I think once the head is off we can see if there has been any contact. That being said the compression readings were really good so I’m guessing the valve stems are probably straight

In the other thread in which jock is discussing the timing of the later variable valve timing version, he talks about the cam pulley not being keyed so it could be someone had loosened that off at some point and the timing slipped ever so slightly

 

[bugsymike]

Amazing it still ran and reasonably well, just lacking power.

I think once the head is off we can see if there has been any contact. That being said the compression readings were really good so I’m guessing the valve stems are probably straight

In the other thread in which jock is discussing the timing of the later variable valve timing version, he talks about the cam pulley not being keyed so it could be someone had loosened that off at some point and the timing slipped ever so slightly

My Auto data timing book doesn't list the ELX Punto, do you have an engine series number, it may show something?

 

[vexorg]

Might be less than a tooth out at that distance from the crank.

If it's all standard, no silly cam sprocket slackening, then it should be a simple change. If it's an interference engine, I'd changed it, otherwise I'd be 50-50 on it and try re-time it.

 

[AndyRKett]

My Auto data timing book doesn't list the ELX Punto, do you have an engine series number, it may show something?

from the hand book it states it is engine type code 176B9.000

Might be less than a tooth out at that distance from the crank.

If it's all standard, no silly cam sprocket slackening, then it should be a simple change. If it's an interference engine, I'd changed it, otherwise I'd be 50-50 on it and try re-time it.

I think you might be right, by the time it is lined up it may well be less than a whole tooth. the compression test is good, so thats a bonus. I think for peace of mind and the fact I have bought all the gaskets already, I might as well inspect and regrind the valves as well as inspecting and cleaning the top of the pistons, maybe a visual inspection of the conrods from underneath.

The problem I am having at the moment is I covered everything in oil a couple of weeks back and now I don't know if I have oil leaks or if thats just from the "incident" so I am not sure if I should be replacing all the oil seals as well.

 

[bugsymike]

from the hand book it states it is engine type code 176B9.000


I think you might be right, by the time it is lined up it may well be less than a whole tooth. the compression test is good, so thats a bonus. I think for peace of mind and the fact I have bought all the gaskets already, I might as well inspect and regrind the valves as well as inspecting and cleaning the top of the pistons, maybe a visual inspection of the conrods from underneath.

The problem I am having at the moment is I covered everything in oil a couple of weeks back and now I don't know if I have oil leaks or if thats just from the "incident" so I am not sure if I should be replacing all the oil seals as well.

This any good ? As usual apologies for photo quality.

 

[AndyRKett]

This any good ? As usual apologies for photo quality.

Thanks for that, that is very useful !!