Technical Cannot bleed coolant :(

[cietdoke]

Hi folks, i recently replaced the common rotten water pipe going behind the manifold. Not too difficult and a 20 quid part, not bad.

Where i am struggling however, is bleeding the coolant. I have never in my life had something give so much grief in terms of bleeding!

Followed the many guides on here for bleeding the 1.2 8v FIRE on the Panda but still i'm chock full of air. Sitting still doing about 2000rpm gives a very noticeable loud gurgle of air from the heater matrix/passenger side.

It's "consumed" about 1L of coolant since i changed the pipe and bled. It's not leaking anywhere and it's not a head gasket either, oil is perfect, no sweet smoke out the tailpipe and no other signs of it.

I've bled from the heater matrix hose near the bulkhead, got a steady stream of coolant flowing. I've ran it with the expansion tank cap off. I've (tried) to bleed from the radiator/expansion tank bleed screw but i just cook my hand on the manifold.

What am i missing here? Is there another method or do i just need to waste loads of coolant bleeding from the heater matrix screw?

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

1 litre is massive..

Youve had 50% of the system full of air..


My technique :
https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento/486250-cold-air-after-coolant-flush-help.html?486250=#post4587222

 

[DaveMcT]

DO NOT RUN THE ENGINE WITH AIR IN THE COOLANT.

It's a great way to blow the head gasket. Unless its already failed. Sorry but there's not really any leeway with today's engines.

 

[cietdoke]

I should point out that the majority of the 1L consumption is also from it pouring out the bleed screws in an attempt to bleed it!

 

[varesecrazy]

I should point out that the majority of the 1L consumption is also from it pouring out the bleed screws in an attempt to bleed it!

So your research obviously didnt find my posts..

I dumped and refilled my panda at least 4 times.
HG x2..new stat.. heater matrix too

Didnt have any airlock issues.

 

[cietdoke]

I did actually see a few posts you made varesecrazy, and a few others, but it wasn't clear if i should do it with the expansion tank cap on or off.

I've not really went anywhere near the radiator bleed screw as it's too stiff to get without me smacking my hand off the exhaust manifold and burning my fingers!

 

[varesecrazy]

I did actually see a few posts you made varesecrazy, and a few others, but it wasn't clear if i should do it with the expansion tank cap on or off.

I've not really went anywhere near the radiator bleed screw as it's too stiff to get without me smacking my hand off the exhaust manifold and burning my fingers!

Cap off..
With the system 'open' it will gurgle air out

Ive only needed to add a few cc of coolant as the system purges little pockets of air over hundreds of driven miles..

Do keep checking

 

[cietdoke]

Thanks. I did try this before but with the expansion tank cap off, i never ever got coolant up to the bleed screw at the bulkhead. I sort of assumed this was because there was no system pressure due to the cap being open...

 

[DaveMcT]

The radiator bleed screw has to be loosened. It should be done before engine is started along with the heater pipe bleed screw.

If it shears off, (carefully) drill it out and use an M6 socket cap screw with washer.

 

[cietdoke]

The radiator bleed screw has to be loosened. It should be done before engine is started along with the heater pipe bleed screw.

If it shears off, (carefully) drill it out and use an M6 socket cap screw with washer.

Thanks Dave - so open the radiator bleed screw, bulkhead bleed screw, AND the expansion tank cap, fill it to the brim, leave open and run it until fluid comes out of both bleeds?

 

[koalar]

raising the drivers side front helps with the bleeding

 

[DaveMcT]

Thanks Dave - so open the radiator bleed screw, bulkhead bleed screw, AND the expansion tank cap, fill it to the brim, leave open and run it until fluid comes out of both bleeds?

Keep topping up the tank until the bleeds run clear. No need to have them flooding out. Close the bleeds and start the engine. if level drops top up to the full line. When top hose is hot you are done.

If the head gasket fails you cannot bleed the system because gas gets pushed in from the blown cylinder(s).

 

[varesecrazy]

Thanks. I did try this before but with the expansion tank cap off, i never ever got coolant up to the bleed screw at the bulkhead. I sort of assumed this was because there was no system pressure due to the cap being open...

Sounds like you had a matrix full of air..

TBH I never bothered with the radiator bleed..
I removed the lower rad hose.. system drained

Then replace the hose.. open the matrix hose bleed screw.. slowly fill with fluid until some appears at the bleed

Squeeze the rad hose.. it will push fluid through the bleed

Squeeze as you close ( they have an o.ring seal.. so doesnt need torqueing down )

Fill coolant halfway between MAX mark and top of filler neck

Cap OFF.. start engine and keep an eye on the fluid

Let us know how it goes

 

[cietdoke]

So still not getting very far with these methods. I have far more luck with the expansion tank cap off... video below, but still doesnt seem great...

https://www.icloud.com/photos/#0n3KCKLrzA1hDdpm4rvGLD9Kw

 

[varesecrazy]

No luck..far more luck ?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Don't seem to be having much luck do you - I sympathize. I don't know if this will help but here's what I did for trouble free bleeding on our 2010 1.2 Panda after I fitted a new cam belt, water pump and the metal pipe that runs along the front of the engine. I've posted this before and others have commented that it was helpful: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/459967-beckys-timing-belt-all-done.html?459967=#post4338985 I've used this pipe a couple of times now and the extra head of water makes bleeding a very quick and easy procedure.

To summarize:
Open both bleeds - top of radiator and heater hose. Fit header pipe and funnel.

Pour in coolant until pure unaerated fluid comes out of the rad bleeder. close rad bleeder. In theory just opening the heater bleeder should let it bleed through I would think, but I've always opened the rad bleeder and never tried it any other way.

Continue to pour in coolant until the water coming out of the heater bleed is more or less air free (don't worry if there's a bit of fizzy coolant coming out at this stage. Leave this bleed open.

Start engine and keep fluid topped up in the funnel - but not too full, as long as it's to the top of the rubber tubing is fine and it'll leave room for expansion if needed.

Run the engine at fast idle - 1500 to 2000 is more than enough - and, when "fizzy" water turns to unaerated from the heater bleed, close the heater bleed. It only needs to be "nipped" as the seal is achieved by the rubber washer, if you do it too tight it will likely snap off. Remove the funnel tube and screw down the radiator cap.

Now you should have coolant throughout the system but there will be a little air still left which will work it's way out over the next wee while so you need to keep an eye on the coolant level for a few days. A short drive with the engine up to temp, and so the thermostat open, should displace most of it and you'll need to do a wee top up, maybe half a litre at most, then just a dribble over the next couple of days. Watch you don't scald yourself if you try to remove the cap on a hot system.

So now you should be done! Looking at your video I wouldn't be surprised if you've got so little coolant in the system that the pump can't circulate it and it may be that your radiator is not bled out fully so the water level in the block is too low for the pump to be functioning? Only a guess.

I have to be a right Job's comforter and say, as has been mentioned above, these engines, although being very robust under most operating situations, realy realy don't like low coolant levels and will often reward the negligent with a blown head gasket! Got my fingers crossed for you that she's not suffered any localized overheating during your bleeding adventures.

 

[cietdoke]

Big thanks to all who posted here - sadly none of those methods got it totally sorted, but i finally found one that did.

I got the rear of the car on a fairy steep angle, aiming down the way and bled the matrix that way, so the bleed screw is far higher than the head or expansion tank. After a few minutes of bubbly, fizzy air, i got a solid flow.

100-odd miles later and the coolant level hasn't changed a bit - sorted!

Huge thanks!

 

[varesecrazy]

Big thanks to all who posted here - sadly none of those methods got it totally sorted, but i finally found one that did.

I got the rear of the car on a fairy steep angle, aiming down the way and bled the matrix that way, so the bleed screw is far higher than the head or expansion tank. After a few minutes of bubbly, fizzy air, i got a solid flow.

100-odd miles later and the coolant level hasn't changed a bit - sorted!

Huge thanks!

Well done

Tail lights a foot.. or 2.. higher than the headlights.. thats is unusual.

Out of interest..

What state was the original coolant in ?

Im left thinking the matrix was partially blocked... passing air far better than fluid..

 

[koalar]

Well done

Tail lights a foot.. or 2.. higher than the headlights.. thats is unusual.

Out of interest..

What state was the original coolant in ?

Im left thinking the matrix was partially blocked... passing air far better than fluid..

it is weird and the exact opposite to what I do.

i put the drivers front on a ramp.

main thing is its sorted.

 

[cietdoke]

Well done

What state was the original coolant in ?

Im left thinking the matrix was partially blocked... passing air far better than fluid..

Interestingly i assumed it was going to be pretty dirty/old, but it wasn't - very clear and pink. It had obviously been replaced fairly recently in its life (no service history so I've no clue)

I was only doing this work due to the rotten coolant pipe that goes behind the manifold, wasn't planning on changing the coolant regardless, but did anyway.

Thanks for your assistance folks!