Brake Fluid Tester temptation

[theoneandonly]

I was pondering all of this then came up with another probably totally inaccurate test

So given I've declared this idea is pants, let us proceed

On my central heating system, I check the quality of the anti-corrosive and inhibitor strength/quality by putting a simple tin-tac/nail (not protected in any way) into a sample of central heating fluid and a side/comparison test of tap water. it does not take long for the obvious differences to become evident (clean shiny nail vs rusty nail).

I have no chemical knowledge idea about how these inhibitors work but clearly, we have a 95%+ water base solution with some 5% additive that stops corrosion and sludge buildup.

With brake fluid we have an opposite. 95% base fluid with 5% water content.

Now being a tropical fish keeper the "test strips" are a common and diagnostic for many different types of contaminants.

So why has nobody come up with a simple "dip & test" test strip that can indicated the percentage of water in brake fluid.

Seems like (for me) a blaring hole in the Automotive/similar industry!

Now that I've given the idea I claim, in public, announced "Prior Art", to protect my IP interests.

sorry they all ready exist, a quick search yields these

Pardon our interruption...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I was pondering all of this then came up with another probably totally inaccurate test

So given I've declared this idea is pants, let us proceed

On my central heating system, I check the quality of the anti-corrosive and inhibitor strength/quality by putting a simple tin-tac/nail (not protected in any way) into a sample of central heating fluid and a side/comparison test of tap water. it does not take long for the obvious differences to become evident (clean shiny nail vs rusty nail).

I have no chemical knowledge idea about how these inhibitors work but clearly, we have a 95%+ water base solution with some 5% additive that stops corrosion and sludge buildup.

With brake fluid we have an opposite. 95% base fluid with 5% water content.

Now being a tropical fish keeper the "test strips" are a common and diagnostic for many different types of contaminants.

So why has nobody come up with a simple "dip & test" test strip that can indicated the percentage of water in brake fluid.

Seems like (for me) a blaring hole in the Automotive/similar industry!

Now that I've given the idea I claim, in public, announced "Prior Art", to protect my IP interests.

What an absolutely brilliant idea. Surely it must be possible? Then again, maybe not because it's such a simple idea someone would surely have tried it before now? I like your thinking though.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

What an absolutely brilliant idea. Surely it must be possible? Then again, maybe not because it's such a simple idea someone would surely have tried it before now? I like your thinking though.

Oh, sorry, didn't see your last post before I wrote this. I'm now wondering why I've never heard of them though?

 

[The Panda Nut]

Yes. I think it's safest to assume that either yes or no means maybe but with attached conditions. Best to ascertain the conditions before proceeding.

Knowing one's place is fundamental to harmonious co-existence. As is being prepared to eat humble pie.

You get pie? Wow you must be MUCH better behaved tham me.

No pie of ANY sort for me !

 

[The Panda Nut]

What an absolutely brilliant idea. Surely it must be possible? Then again, maybe not because it's such a simple idea someone would surely have tried it before now? I like your thinking though.

Yes I had never thought of this either. You can see when you drain the system if its had inhibitor though as the liquid stays clear.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I was pondering all of this then came up with another probably totally inaccurate test

So given I've declared this idea is pants, let us proceed

On my central heating system, I check the quality of the anti-corrosive and inhibitor strength/quality by putting a simple tin-tac/nail (not protected in any way) into a sample of central heating fluid and a side/comparison test of tap water. it does not take long for the obvious differences to become evident (clean shiny nail vs rusty nail).

I have no chemical knowledge idea about how these inhibitors work but clearly, we have a 95%+ water base solution with some 5% additive that stops corrosion and sludge buildup.

With brake fluid we have an opposite. 95% base fluid with 5% water content.

Now being a tropical fish keeper the "test strips" are a common and diagnostic for many different types of contaminants.

So why has nobody come up with a simple "dip & test" test strip that can indicated the percentage of water in brake fluid.

Seems like (for me) a blaring hole in the Automotive/similar industry!

Now that I've given the idea I claim, in public, announced "Prior Art", to protect my IP interests.

Probably toxic, carcinogenic, explosive flammable and banned by the EU.... Where can I get some!
Internet Protocol interests???? My computer is developing Artificial Insemination! I shall have to change it for something more polite!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

You get pie? Wow you must be MUCH better behaved tham me.

No pie of ANY sort for me !

I am soooo tempted to make inappropriate comment here, but I don't want banned from this wonderful forum so I'll keep it zipped!

 

[s130]

sorry they all ready exist, a quick search yields these

Pardon our interruption...

Well they say this measures copper corrosion and not water level content.

This to me suggest you have to take a sample of fluid from a bleed nipple to test, as there is little/no copper in the fluid reservoir other than any reflux.

If I've got to get down and dirty to start cracking brake nipple(s) I just might as well change the fluid.

(Unless I've missed someting?)

 

[theoneandonly]

Corrosion re.lated to water content?

 

[s130]

Corrosion re.lated to water content?

Yes and no.

Is not corrosion is a long term degradation of materials often induced by moisture, salt and other agents? With a corrosion brake fluid test this does not detect water content of the fluid only corrosion it may have caused. I suspect that if you do a complete fluid change/flush then whilst water content will now hopefully be zero there will still be come corrosion residue for several further changes/flushes. (think central heating power flush if that is a good analogy?)

My thinking is that is you keep your brake fluid in good condition then corrosion will be minimal. Thus water content detection is the prime item we need to be monitoring?

I also took the opportunity to try dig a little deeper and found this site: https://www.brakebleeder.com/

The video is interesting because they just strip dip test the reservoir. This is thus suggesting enough brake fluid is being returned to the reservoir for the test to be valid.

I/we certainly need to do some more digging/research because this is getting interesting.

 

[s130]

This video is interesting:

I might be becoming a convert

More detailed references: https://www.brakebleeder.com/solutions/brake-fluid-testing/resources/

Copper vs Water: https://www.brakebleeder.com/solutions/brake-fluid-testing/resources/copper-vs-water/

 

[s130]

What is a little interesting is the marketing/revenue position for copper testing. In the copper vs water article.

Quote:

"An independent study* reveals copper testing is 35 times more effective at identifying vehicles that require a brake flush than moisture testing. The study tested brake fluid in 469 vehicles for boiling point and copper levels. Copper testing discovered a brake fluid flush was required for 208 of the 469 vehicles tested. Only six vehicles had a boiling point below the minimum wet DOT 3 boiling point for new brake fluid."

Now from all our experiences as DIY car owners we do know (I'm guilty) of sometimes pushing/ignore brake fluid changes. In my 50 years of maintaining my cars I've not had and failed major brake components due to corrosion/bad fluid. (barr one old cast iron brake shoe slave cylinder).

You could argue that the information regarding copper on ABS brake unit valves is trying to make an expensive and coercive push to justify copper testing? On the other hand, if brake component manufacturers are in favour of copper testing, then they are losing out on potential expensive component sales or have shares in brake fluid companies.

 

[vexorg]

In my 50 years of maintaining my cars I've not had and failed major brake components due to corrosion/bad fluid.

That's the core problem here, we've all had cars with very old fluid in there (well most of us older owners), and never had any issue, even when doing an emergency stop.

 

[theoneandonly]

Interesting stuff.

 

[chris3234]

I found it very oddf that Tesla puts dot 3 fluid into a lot of there cars not sure why?

 

[s130]

I found it very oddf that Tesla puts dot 3 fluid into a lot of there cars not sure why?

Is DOT3 less hydroscopic than DOT4? If so then maybe Tesla cars which use regenerative braking as well a traditional braking are balancing fluid life and boiling point due to the lower demands on the traditional brakes? Even if they both have the same hydroscopic properties then the lower wet and dry boiling points of DOT3 vs DOT4 (bearing in mind the car also has regenerative braking best suited to long braking runs and down hill) and DOT3's lower price is where they are making production cost margins.

At Eurocar Parts 5L of DO4 costs £32 whereas DOT3 costs £19. Assume 0.75L per car then each car is costing £1.95 less. Sounds insignificant but this is what production engineers dream of.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

That's the core problem here, we've all had cars with very old fluid in there (well most of us older owners), and never had any issue, even when doing an emergency stop.

Aye, that's the problem isn't it? I suspect a very considerable amount of heat is needed such as would be generated during a lengthy hill descent or repeated stops from high speed, perhaps on a very busy motorway in heavy traffic. Just the sort of circumstance where it could be most dangerous. It's never happened to me and I think it unlikely it would be encountered in normal everyday trips around town. Mind you, I have experienced brake fade in my old Anglia (drum brakes all round going down the hill into Lynmouth) and it's something I never want to experience again!

I've often found corroded brake cylinder/caliper pistons which are often due to defects in dust seals but may be due to moisture in the fluid. What I find fascinating is that, considering ABS has been around for years now, I've not yet had a mechanical ABS failure - shouldn't have said that should I? Electrical connections etc, yes, but valve bodies etc, no.

Talking about ABS, how many of you slacken a bleed nipple when retracting a caliper piston? Back in the "good old days" before ABS, it was common practice to just force the pistons back and let the fluid return to the M/C reservoir. As I didn't know any better I just kept on doing this after ABS became common, as did all the other "Lads" in the shop. Then we had a wee break time talk from our local Girling rep who told us not to do this as dirt can enter the ABS valve body and mess things up. "Don't do it lads, open the bleed nipple and let the fluid out as you push the piston back". So, for quite some time I started trying to do this and broke a few bleed nipples in doing so. We decided to go back to the "old" way of doing it. Felt quite worried about it for a while but as ABS units weren't falling by the wayside in droves We just carried on. Of course then I got more involved in training and admin rolls so didn't earn my daily crust on the shop floor any more so kind of lost touch. Not so long ago I started asking around the garages I know whether they slacken bleed nipples when retracting caliper pistons, and this is a mix of make specialists and small general "any makes" type shops, I couldn't find anyone who slackens the nipples! I managed to talk in more detail to one or two of the chaps where I'm a "weel kent face" and they mentioned the same problems we found, namely broken nipples and the mess it makes. Of course it's been many years since I did much work on anything other than the "Family Fleet" and they all get regular fluid changes so probably having nice clean fluid in them has been my saviour?

 

[chris3234]

Aye, that's the problem isn't it? I suspect a very considerable amount of heat is needed such as would be generated during a lengthy hill descent or repeated stops from high speed, perhaps on a very busy motorway in heavy traffic. Just the sort of circumstance where it could be most dangerous. It's never happened to me and I think it unlikely it would be encountered in normal everyday trips around town. Mind you, I have experienced brake fade in my old Anglia (drum brakes all round going down the hill into Lynmouth) and it's something I never want to experience again!

I've often found corroded brake cylinder/caliper pistons which are often due to defects in dust seals but may be due to moisture in the fluid. What I find fascinating is that, considering ABS has been around for years now, I've not yet had a mechanical ABS failure - shouldn't have said that should I? Electrical connections etc, yes, but valve bodies etc, no.

Talking about ABS, how many of you slacken a bleed nipple when retracting a caliper piston? Back in the "good old days" before ABS, it was common practice to just force the pistons back and let the fluid return to the M/C reservoir. As I didn't know any better I just kept on doing this after ABS became common, as did all the other "Lads" in the shop. Then we had a wee break time talk from our local Girling rep who told us not to do this as dirt can enter the ABS valve body and mess things up. "Don't do it lads, open the bleed nipple and let the fluid out as you push the piston back". So, for quite some time I started trying to do this and broke a few bleed nipples in doing so. We decided to go back to the "old" way of doing it. Felt quite worried about it for a while but as ABS units weren't falling by the wayside in droves We just carried on. Of course then I got more involved in training and admin rolls so didn't earn my daily crust on the shop floor any more so kind of lost touch. Not so long ago I started asking around the garages I know whether they slacken bleed nipples when retracting caliper pistons, and this is a mix of make specialists and small general "any makes" type shops, I couldn't find anyone who slackens the nipples! I managed to talk in more detail to one or two of the chaps where I'm a "weel kent face" and they mentioned the same problems we found, namely broken nipples and the mess it makes. Of course it's been many years since I did much work on anything other than the "Family Fleet" and they all get regular fluid changes so probably having nice clean fluid in them has been my saviour?

Well given the distance you are pushing the calipers back e.g a cm or 3 I doubt there very much fluid movement so for any debris to then enter into the abs valves the fluid would have to have been nearly totally contaminated to begin with
At least that's the way I see it

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well given the distance you are pushing the calipers back e.g a cm or 3 I doubt there very much fluid movement so for any debris to then enter into the abs valves the fluid would have to have been nearly totally contaminated to begin with
At least that's the way I see it

I agree on piston movement where the calipers are just being cleaned up, pads freed up, lubed and remounted to the carrier. I'm sure very little fluid is displaced for the amount of free play needed to slacken the caliper from their grip on the pads. A different story when renewing pads and/or discs though? Could be 10mm or more to fully retract a piston where the old pads and discs had been well worn? Certainly enough fluid displaced to be noticeable at the master cylinder and often enough to over flow it? Not that I'm loosing any sleep over it. I've been doing this for a long time and am "happy" with what I'm doing - just interested to hear what others think and/or are doing.

 

[s130]

With regards to ABS the ABS unit valves are normally closed for braking unless wheel lock occurs and rotations stops/falters. With regards to pushing fluid back then it won't enter the ABS unit via the brake lines but contaminated fluid in the reservoir can enter the ABS unit. So I don't see the imperative need to crack brake nipples on cylinder piston push back other than to easy the piston push back.