69bhp FIRE - Condensation worry

[varesecrazy]

Hi

Ive owned a 69bhp 2018 500 for a year

Oil cap was choked with 'mayonnaise'

Coolant level holding firm

But back in the cooler months.. the 'mayo' is back


Car does decent trips..so I was expecting it to 'bake fry'... like my twinairs

Are these VVT motors prone to this?

 

[bugsymike]

Hi

Ive owned a 69bhp 2018 500 for a year

Oil cap was choked with 'mayonnaise'

Coolant level holding firm

But back in the cooler months.. the 'mayo' is back


Car does decent trips..so I was expecting it to 'bake fry'... like my twinairs

Are these VVT motors prone to this?

I am sure you know more specific Fiat knowledge than me, but in the old days the most important thing was to get an engine to it's normal running temperature as soon as possible, so we were able to fit "winter" thermostats that opened at 88 degrees C instead of 82, this also gave us quicker demisting and a nice warm heater. Modern cars don't give the option of a choice of thermostats.
Thinner winter oils help but I see apart from some of the Panda 1.1s they all seem to list the same grade summer or winter in AutoData. Is there any choice of oils in the owners handbook for colder climates or do they have to keep to a certain grade of oil due to the VVT side?
Apart from avoiding short journeys which is not always possible.
Back in the 1970s I worked on new Moskvitch cars and they had a metal blind that could be activated inside the car to close the radiator to warm up faster in Russian winters, the danger was when the temperature warmed up and people forgot to open them again!!!

 

[varesecrazy]

I had heard the old Skoda had a 'drawstring blind' that did the same thing..

Ive had..@15 previous 8v FIRE motors.. since @1994 punto
to 2004 (and 07..)panda

None were bad for it.. only appearing when HeadGaskets were failing ( why I have noted coolant levels..)


Oil was changed in Jan this year..all clean .. so no contamination concerns

The oil level is noticably dropping.. it does lots of 60/70 mph work... but again.. nothing conclusive


Ive read over the last few years about 'catch cans' being added by owners
( @pandanut ) on the FIRE motors..

So assume this may be 'the new way'..

Hoped that its 2 hour high speed trips would keep it all happy..but maybe not.

 

[koalar]

My 69hp panda doesn’t do this

Are the two breather hoses clear

Especially the little tube in the air filter

 

[varesecrazy]

I gave it a bit of a clean when I did the plugs in the summer.. it didnt look terrible

But it might still be building..

Im not sure what the 'catch can' brigade are dealing with..?

 

[bugsymike]

I had heard the old Skoda had a 'drawstring blind' that did the same thing..

Ive had..@15 previous 8v FIRE motors.. since @1994 punto
to 2004 (and 07..)panda

None were bad for it.. only appearing when HeadGaskets were failing ( why I have noted coolant levels..)


Oil was changed in Jan this year..all clean .. so no contamination concerns

The oil level is noticably dropping.. it does lots of 60/70 mph work... but again.. nothing conclusive


Ive read over the last few years about 'catch cans' being added by owners
( @pandanut ) on the FIRE motors..

So assume this may be 'the new way'..

Hoped that its 2 hour high speed trips would keep it all happy..but maybe not.

Wow 15 Fire 8v! I always liked those engines in Uno's they just seemed to like revs.
Regular oil changes and 60-70 mph, you would have thought there would be no condensation issues.
I suppose the catch cans idea would allow water vapour in the oil fumes to not be recycled back into the engine, but obviously it would fall foul of emission laws.

 

[varesecrazy]

Updating this a little

Oil Filler Cap is gathering a little mayo..but nothing too bad

Once the warm weather is here reliably I will wash out the Cap and check for anything new

 

[The Panda Nut]

See my thread on catch cans - Panda. Both our 1.2s do this and I believe its neither uncommon nor abnormal. I have fitted catch cans to both which has stopped then mayo completley. I have a concern on one car that the ehad gasket may be suspect but the other is very similar but has no signs of anything amiss at all. Sealed crank cases are maybe better for the environment but lack of breathing is to my belief very bad for the engine keeping moisture produced in combustion inside the sump unless is oozes out of the breather. Very little oil gets to the catch can but it can produce 300cc of water in little over a week! The only drawback of the catch can is the need to empty it weekly.

 

[varesecrazy]

See my thread on catch cans - Panda. Both our 1.2s do this and I believe its neither uncommon nor abnormal. I have fitted catch cans to both which has stopped then mayo completley. I have a concern on one car that the ehad gasket may be suspect but the other is very similar but has no signs of anything amiss at all. Sealed crank cases are maybe better for the environment but lack of breathing is to my belief very bad for the engine keeping moisture produced in combustion inside the sump unless is oozes out of the breather. Very little oil gets to the catch can but it can produce 300cc of water in little over a week! The only drawback of the catch can is the need to empty it weekly.

I had responded to your catch.can thread regarding this car - engine combo


I am hoping what I initially saw and was concerned about had taken 50k to build up.. as I say
It will get a thorough clean once the frosts finish

 

[The Panda Nut]

I had responded to your catch.can thread regarding this car - engine combo


I am hoping what I initially saw and was concerned about had taken 50k to build up.. as I say
It will get a thorough clean once the frosts finish

If you want to see mayo in REAL quantities you should see my Panda TA. I took the cap off a running engine and it was blowing out blobs of may the size of tennis balls. I have stopped worrying about it as everyone says its normal. Our newer 1.2 is 2014 and is just shy of 40K on hte clock but it used to get slimey on the filler cap threads but nothing too excessive. I just feel that oil and water, wherever its from, are best kept apart. My dealer did flush the TA when I complained about mayo, but I think this was pointless. It would be interesting to see if the 1.2 does look drier if the breaher was left open for a week or two. Anyway I hope it nothing serious.

 

[chris3234]

Wow 15 Fire 8v! I always liked those engines in Uno's they just seemed to like revs.
Regular oil changes and 60-70 mph, you would have thought there would be no condensation issues.
I suppose the catch cans idea would allow water vapour in the oil fumes to not be recycled back into the engine, but obviously it would fall foul of emission laws.

I believe catch cats are still legal provided they don't vent to atmosphere

 

[koalar]

i have had

1.1 2006
1.2 2010
1.2 2005

driven differently by two different drivers

never had a problem with mayo when they are working well

i have had blocked breathers, worn airbox gasket and blown head cause the MAP to mayo up and cause bad running

 

[bugsymike]

i have had

1.1 2006
1.2 2010
1.2 2005

driven differently by two different drivers

never had a problem with mayo when they are working well

i have had blocked breathers, worn airbox gasket and blown head cause the MAP to mayo up and cause bad running

In the old days it was short journeys, cold engines, thermostats stuck open or opening early and thick older oils that were the prime causes of "mayonnaise" , often when servicing the rocker boxes were wall to wall gunk with lines where you could see the rockers had been rubbing.
Obviously if no head gasket etc. issues.
Just a thought, apart from racing cars few had oil coolers, now nearly every standard vehicle has one, is it possible most cars used locally never get the oil hot enough and tied with recirculating emission systems all the condensation and acids created are being prevented from escaping, so arguably some form of legal "catch can" may be a solution.

 

[varesecrazy]

Yes HEAT or the lack of may still be very relevant..

Hence me looking harder when the frosts stop

It spends 1.5 hours at 3,000rpm on a regular basis.. but that doesnt mean it isnt still running cool.

My twinairs dont show mayo.. diesels certainly didnt.. but of course they are all Turbo's


8valve FIREs have been good for me over the years..
HG failures will fill the CamCover and its Baffle Tray of course

 

[chris3234]

Perhaps some sort of Bluetooth obs device on check the Temps after a good run should give you an idea of average temps?

Although a oil temp gauge would be better for this issue shame fiat don't fit one

 

[bugsymike]

Yes HEAT or the lack of may still be very relevant..

Hence me looking harder when the frosts stop

It spends 1.5 hours at 3,000rpm on a regular basis.. but that doesnt mean it isnt still running cool.

My twinairs dont show mayo.. diesels certainly didnt.. but of course they are all Turbo's


8valve FIREs have been good for me over the years..
HG failures will fill the CamCover and its Baffle Tray of course

Re oil temp. I know many times when taking cars for Mots and they were having a job using a temp probe down the dipstick hole and finding it hard to reach 80 degrees I think was the cut off point for emission tests.
This is in sunny Torbay where I have only had to deice my car about four times this year and not had sufficient snow to even hide the "lawn" (dandelion patch) mind you quite near the sea.

 

[The Panda Nut]

If you want to see mayo in REAL quantities you should see my Panda TA. I took the cap off a running engine and it was blowing out blobs of may the size of tennis balls. I have stopped worrying about it as everyone says its normal. Our newer 1.2 is 2014 and is just shy of 40K on hte clock but it used to get slimey on the filler cap threads but nothing too excessive. I just feel that oil and water, wherever its from, are best kept apart. My dealer did flush the TA when I complained about mayo, but I think this was pointless. It would be interesting to see if the 1.2 does look drier if the breaher was left open for a week or two. Anyway I hope it nothing serious.

I have been checking the 2011 Panda's water again as concerned it may be loosing some. My garage said to leave it alone and see where it settled. Its dropped about 7mm from the max line and every time I top it up it drops again. However leaving it alone at that level it seems to stay steady. None used in three weeks now. The other car sits dead on full and doesnt change. Daffo feels really good since the belt was changed and the VVT solenoid cleaned so I hope its now good for another stretch. The volume of water from the catch can suggests mayo will be inevitable.

 

[bugsymike]

I have been checking the 2011 Panda's water again as concerned it may be loosing some. My garage said to leave it alone and see where it settled. Its dropped about 7mm from the max line and every time I top it up it drops again. However leaving it alone at that level it seems to stay steady. None used in three weeks now. The other car sits dead on full and doesnt change. Daffo feels really good since the belt was changed and the VVT solenoid cleaned so I hope its now good for another stretch. The volume of water from the catch can suggests mayo will be inevitable.

A weak radiator/header tank pressure cap can give similar problem if not holding full pressure. Has cap been tested?

 

[The Panda Nut]

A weak radiator/header tank pressure cap can give similar problem if not holding full pressure. Has cap been tested?

No, Ive never even considered that either. I will swap the two caps over tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[bugsymike]

No, Ive never even considered that either. I will swap the two caps over tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.

Worth a try, we always used a radiator pressure tester with an adaptor to fit a wide range of radiator caps.
Often they wouldn't hold pressure anywhere near the stated pressure on the cap. or you could see them reach the pressure and slowly lose it.