General 4x4 Panda

[russ44]

Hello

I'm looking to buy a 2014 4x4 cross, but was wondering if there are any known issues to be aware of?

Is there a cambelt that needs changing and if so, what is the service interval?

Does the 4x4 system need any upkeep like a Haldex system?

Clutches, what's the general opinion on lifespan?

The car I am interested in has 60k miles on it

Any pointers are much appreciated

Thank you

 

[IanWalrus]

What engine? Mine is a TA (TwinAir) and does not have a cambelt.

 

[varesecrazy]

What engine..?

Diesel and twinair are timing chain.. worth changing @100k irrespective of age

1242cc FIRE petrol has a belt
Probably 5 years : 60k

Centre propshaft bearing seems to be a common hassle..

Obviously some cars see a lot more mud than others

 

[IanWalrus]

I just had my center prop shaft bearing replaced (for MoT, 38k miles); the stealers wanted £700 (for the whole shaft); got it done at a place in Bracknell for £170.

 

[russ44]

Thank you,

It is a twin air petrol that I like the look of.

One concern I have is the power (or lack of it). I can't test it on a motorway due to the location, but would like to know is the gearing set so that it is screaming at 70?

It won't spend it's life on motorways (I know they're not designed for this kind of life), but it will need to do the occasional 2 hour trips. As long as it's not really noisy e.g. above 3k at cruising speed, it will be fine.

The propshaft bearing at 38k seems a bit concerning. That doesn't seem very high mileage. I have never owned a 4x4 before so it's all a bit new to me. I have had Audi Haldex experience, but from memory, that was just change the Haldex oil.

The Cross 4x4 looks great, but is quite a lot dearer than a similarly spec 4x4 I've seen. I see the ground clearance is a few mm difference due to the tyres, but is the approach angle much different. It looks much steeper on the Cross.

The other concern is a budget for a clutch. What have you guys paid for a clutch replacement? My current car has quoted £800-1000!! at 3 garages. I expected £600, perhaps I am behind the times with pricing.

 

[Marcus Daly]

My 2020 4x4 TA is good as gold at motorway speeds, perfectly relaxed. The sixth gear helps, of course. If a 2014 has that you’ll be fine.

On a broader point, the TA is a marmite engine. Plenty of power where you need it, and it suits the personality of the car. Of the four engine options the Panda’s had, it’s the one I’d choose every time. But a good long test drive is essential to decide if it’s for you.

 

[jrkitching]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Buying a car at this age and price point is always going to be something of a gamble. My advice is to keep things as simple as possible; a manual 2WD 1.2 Panda will be far less likely to give you a wallet-emptying experience than the car you're looking at.

If you do go for a TA 4X4, the three big ticket items that are commonly reported here at this sort of age and mileage are the clutch/DMF, the uniair valve actuator, and the propshaft centre bearing. If you search this forum, you'll find examples of all three. And that's where the gamble comes in; if you bought this car and spent an additional £3k on repairs in the first twelve months, it wouldn't surprise me at all - but equally it wouldn't surprise me if you'd spent nothing. And since these are all wear and tear items, you'd be lucky to get anything in the way of reimbursement from any used car warranty.

My personal view is that the 4x4TA is a car that was best bought new and traded away after 3-4 years. Strong residuals make it a great car for the first owner, but indifferent parts quality make it a potential liability for the subsequent ones.

Clutches, what's the general opinion on lifespan?

Depends entirely on how it's driven.

The biggest problem is that all 4x4TA models have a dual mass flywheel, which commonly fails anywhere from 40k onwards and is a big ticket part. Worse, running clearances are tight, and if DMF wear is not dealt with promptly, significant collateral damage is possible. The recommendation is to change the DMF at clutch change time; £600-£800 is about what I'd expect to pay at an independent garage. If the bellhousing is also damaged, folks have been quoted north of £2k by franchised dealers!

 

[Goudrons]

First off, your 4x4 Panda isn't the run of the mill small hatchback city car, so doesn't quite drive like one.
As already mentioned, the Twinair engine is a bit of an oddball, some love it, some loath it.
When you put the two together you get something quite unique.

Also the Twinair revs pretty freely and it's fun to rev it, though it's perhaps best phut phuting around at low rpm as it makes what little torque it has at a lowly 1900 rpm.
It can make a fuss when reved hard, but it also sounds a bit odd flogging it around in high gears at slow speed but it tends to work best like this, so much so you can chug it so slow you can count the piston strokes!

The 4x4 system is pretty good, but it's sensitive to torque. Drive it spiritied and it'll spend more of it's time powering all four wheels.
Phut phut around and it'll drag itself along by the fronts only.

I had mine nearly 4 years from new, also a 2014 and it did tend to feel a bit odd and clunky on the road when the rear axle was connected up, like gear changes feeling a bit baulky and the drivechain felt tight.

The Twinair 4x4 does have 6 speeds in the gearbox, but don't be misled they are comparable with other 6 speeders.
First gear on the Twinair 4x4 is really really low. It's very easy to hit the rev limiter in 1st if you try and accelerate like a normal car (and it'll likely engage the rear axle on anything other than a really light foot)
With 1st, just get it moving then slip them into second asap. This can make stop start traffic a bit painful after a while.

On the road the trick is to get it bubbling along in it's peak torque range and keep shifting the gears to keep it in that sweet spot (it is a sweet spot but your ears will tell you it isn't and your flogging the engine too low) though this requires a lot of gear changes.
It should drive more smoothly and keep some of the stress off the drivetrain.

Off road you can ignore all that. It will sort out where to shunt the power by itself, so you can blaze away on the throttle and it just hooks up and goes.
It's pretty much peerless off road. It's light enough not to bog down and it'll embarrass stuff that costs 10 times as much.
Off road, think of them as a mountain goat rather than a heavy hippo.

You asked about the motorway, yes it will be OK though it's no long distance cruiser.
Rev it hard and it can be quite noisy and viby but should be comfortable enough as normal motorway speeds.
It'll have enough power for most types of driving, it's just it's easy to rev yet it's better when you don't.

If you are really thinking about buying one, take a few test drives, the more the better. Don't just rely on your first impression, as I said it can be fun when reved so first impressions can mislead.
It's 4x4 system is a proper bit of kit but it can take a little away from the onroad manners, some like it, some don't.

 

[Panda IIs]

Thank you,

It is a twin air petrol that I like the look of.

One concern I have is the power (or lack of it). I can't test it on a motorway due to the location, but would like to know is the gearing set so that it is screaming at 70?

It won't spend it's life on motorways (I know they're not designed for this kind of life), but it will need to do the occasional 2 hour trips. As long as it's not really noisy e.g. above 3k at cruising speed, it will be fine.

The propshaft bearing at 38k seems a bit concerning. That doesn't seem very high mileage. I have never owned a 4x4 before so it's all a bit new to me. I have had Audi Haldex experience, but from memory, that was just change the Haldex oil.

The Cross 4x4 looks great, but is quite a lot dearer than a similarly spec 4x4 I've seen. I see the ground clearance is a few mm difference due to the tyres, but is the approach angle much different. It looks much steeper on the Cross.

The other concern is a budget for a clutch. What have you guys paid for a clutch replacement? My current car has quoted £800-1000!! at 3 garages. I expected £600, perhaps I am behind the times with pricing.

Mine's a '63 plate 4x4 TA.

Personal experience;

Lack of power? Well it depends what you are looking for 85bhp seems pretty competent in terms of power to weight ratios these days. At motorway speeds in 6th gear it is not a noisy engine, however, what I have found is that tyre noise can be significant to a lesser or greater extent depending on brand/type.

I purchased at around 45k miles maybe 7 years ago now(?) it has now done 85k miles. It had no service history and so I haggled the price down (you may not have the option to do this now since market conditions have changed big time). The Uniair unit relies on engine oil to function correctly (and durably) it seems so a good service history gives some reassurance; mine failed within 6 months of ownership, the clutch and DMF was done around the same time. Clutch/DMF was c£600.00 UniAir £800.00 I've not had nor heard of any propshaft bearing issues (other than on here). From some of the images I have seen it looks like there is a rubber/metal bonded part that probably is the weak link.

I can't comment re approach angles etc I don't make a habit of offroading but can say that the 4x4 system is seamless and kicks in as required in slippy conditions to give a reassuring push in the back.

One thing I would say as I come to get my Volvo 940 off SORN for its "summer season" I really appreciate the Panda's tax class!

So to summarise; it's a car (used one) so like all the rest will have the potential to be a 4 wheel money pit but I would say the costs are lower than many and the TA 4x4 is such fun to drive!

 

[Goudrons]

The Cross has a much better front bumper arrangment.
The standard 4x4's front bumper is quite low and has a lip/splitter under it, just under the sliver "guard" part.
You can make it out in the pic on this thread.

Thicko calling | FIAT Panda (2012+)

Just aquired a 2018 twin air 4x4 panda. So far just cant stop grinning. Can't find the aircon control anywhere?

www.fiatforum.com

I found this lip/splitter was a bit of a menace on rutted farm tracks, it always caught the hump in the middle of the track.
Mine never broke, but it did start looking like a dog's chew toy pretty quickly.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Which tyres is it wearing at the moment - lots get changed for regular summers, I noticed when researching mine? Without tyres that have the capability to offroad, much of the talk about relative approach angles is academic, I think. Once fitted, then for the most extreme stuff, the Cross, but not many drivers will go beyond the vanilla 4x4's capability tbh.

 

[jrkitching]

Mine's a '63 plate 4x4 TA.

That's a good summary.

Clutch/DMF was c£600.00 UniAir £800.00

Just be thankful you did it when you did. Parts prices have increased considerably - the uniair module is now over £840 for the part alone. OEM DMF's are now the best part of £500.

If buying a used TA today with >40k on the clock, I'd want to put aside £3k for first year repairs; if I didn't need to spend that, I'd consider it a bonus.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

That's a good summary.



Just be thankful you did it when you did. Parts prices have increased considerably - the uniair module is now over £840 for the part alone.

If buying a used TA today with >40k on the clock, I'd want to put aside £3k for first year repairs; if I didn't need to spend that, I'd consider it a bonus.

Shocking really, when you think about it!

 

[jrkitching]

Shocking really, when you think about it!

Yes, the prices being asked for well-used cars are almost beyond belief. Getting hold of parts is also becoming a problem, even for those who can stomach the price increases - one chap here has just recently had to source something as common as a clutch release bearing from Belgium. Stuff that could be got from S4P with 40%-60% discounts a few months ago is now essentially only available at full retail.

The days when those handy with spanners could buy a serviceable older car for under £1000 and get a few years use from it are gone, probably forever.

A new car on a PCP might be better value for some.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Yes, the prices being asked for well-used cars are almost beyond belief. Getting hold of parts is also becoming a problem, even for those who can stomach the price increases - one chap here has just recently had to source something as common as a clutch release bearing from Belgium. Stuff that could be got from S4P with 40%-60% discounts a few months ago is now essentially only available at full retail.

The days when those handy with spanners could buy a serviceable older car for under £1000 and get a few years use from it are gone, probably forever.

A new car on a PCP might be better value for some.

Glad I got mine for a billy-bargain £ - I've spent on new tyres, key and bits, but I can afford to throw extra if/as needed.

 

[Panda IIs]

If buying a used TA today with >40k on the clock, I'd want to put aside £3k for first year repairs; if I didn't need to spend that, I'd consider it a bonus.

Just for a bit of balance...

I think I would want something in reserve for any 4 year old second hand vehicle regardless of it being a FIAT and specifically a TA. I think we are in agreement that at that age (out of warranty, lease hire requirements etc) that is maybe the most likely timing for replacements such as clutch (driver dependent) disc rotors and pads, shocks maybe, tyres definitely - if still on originals, timing belt - not applicable here I know, etc etc.

As I said most are 4 wheel money pits, but some have the potential to be very deep pits...

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thank you,

It is a twin air petrol that I like the look of.

One concern I have is the power (or lack of it). I can't test it on a motorway due to the location, but would like to know is the gearing set so that it is screaming at 70?

It won't spend it's life on motorways (I know they're not designed for this kind of life), but it will need to do the occasional 2 hour trips. As long as it's not really noisy e.g. above 3k at cruising speed, it will be fine.

The propshaft bearing at 38k seems a bit concerning. That doesn't seem very high mileage. I have never owned a 4x4 before so it's all a bit new to me. I have had Audi Haldex experience, but from memory, that was just change the Haldex oil.

The Cross 4x4 looks great, but is quite a lot dearer than a similarly spec 4x4 I've seen. I see the ground clearance is a few mm difference due to the tyres, but is the approach angle much different. It looks much steeper on the Cross.

The other concern is a budget for a clutch. What have you guys paid for a clutch replacement? My current car has quoted £800-1000!! at 3 garages. I expected £600, perhaps I am behind the times with pricing.

I am on my 2nd 4x4 TA and have a mate in the village who has a 2014 with similar milage. No issues to report, The older car has slightly noisy transmission and migt benefit from transmission oil change. The issue of centre bearing on the propshaft seems to affect many. The 4x4 system will switch in automatically as needed in a seamless fashion. On the dash the ELD button or the 4x4 delector on the crosss should NOT be engaged unless your stuck or the going is very very slippery as locking 4x4 in permanently (auto disengages at 30kph anyway) will put excessive strain on the 4x4 system on dry grippy roads. I dont know but suspect that premature failures may be due to engaing and locking 4x4 in all the time, or not using this unless in snow or deep mud etc woudl reduce the risk. Lack of power is not soemthing I would ever level at a TA exceptig ealier ones around 2014 have a reputaton for gutlessness when the ECO is switched on. My latest will go fine in eithr mode. On the earlier cars this system was poorly mapped and seems best switched off or lack of power would be an issue, but just switch it off and if you want economy, drive economically and it will be fine. There is virtually no 4x4 maintenance specified until very high milage. I can only recommend as far as my own experience goes and enjoy knowing you are VERY unlikely ever to get stuck... I love the fact that the car can potter about but is also quite capable of cruising at over 80mph. Budget on it being thirsty. My 2017 car was a 35mpg car with 50 just about possible with effort on a long run. The new one is a 42mpg car with 60 possible with a reasonable amount of effort on a run. I regularly haul a trailer loaded to capacity and the car handles it with great ease and bounds uphill with distain. This is a very strong little engine. It takesa while to learn to drive something so different but I absolutely love mine now I undserstand it. I will chicken out long before the Panda will fail to get me through.

Clutches are expensive as they require a flywheel change at the same time but more suppliers are becoming available and my expectation would be an all in bill of £850. No reason to expect the clutch not to last 100K from what I have read. I would get the car plugged into a diagnostic set up prior to purchase as engine overrevving times and duration can be seen from this. Check its underbody is not bashed about and try and get a 12 month mechanical warranty to cover andy disater situations.

Go for it

 

[Panda IIs]

Check its underbody is not bashed about and try and get a 12 month mechanical warranty to cover andy disater situations.

Good call re underbody - specifically the sump guard on my 4x4 at least. Mine has been removed for a while now (after 80k miles) since it has succumbed beyond repair to rust. I have purchased some reasonable stainless sheet and am in the process of reskinning the fabricated frame - it's taking me longer than it should due to work commitments! The Shop4Parts discounted price is looking attractive right now!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I'll add my bit here...

- Basically the (non Cross) 4x4 and Cross 4x4 have practically identical off road ability. The only things the Cross gains are Hill Descent Control (only really needed for going down slippery muddy slopes of 30 degrees or more where you might prefer not to use the brakes), and a tiny increase in off-road height through (as you say) slightly taller tyres. The approach angle has never been a problem on my regular 4x4 - the Cross has a bit less bumper to catch, but maybe at the expense of a bit less protection for the intercooler? TBH, if either bumpers were hitting the ground your probably trying to climb
something the Panda isn't really designed for (it was, of course, really more for snow-covered mountain passes rather than off road trialling).

- The thing with the propshaft bearing: the propshaft is in two sections with a universal joint between them. This is supported in metal bracket (protected in a metal cage under the centre of the car) by a rubber 'doughnut', and a bearing in the centre of that which the shaft passes through. It's not the bearing that fails, but the rubber ring holding it (academic since you can't replace one without the other).... the issue is if the rubber perishes, it's then an MOT fail. The perishing seems to happen more in low-use, low annual mileage cars. Mines done 44000 miles in four and a half years and that part looks new still, but I am quite festidious about hosing out under the car when it gets too muddy and after each road salting season - this seems to help a lot. It was starting to perish on my 2005 4x4 when I sold it in 2013... A complete new propshaft including that bearing is £260 (note: dealers want £1600!) , and easy (with the car on a lift) to remove and refit so don't be put off by horror stories on this one. (Note the propshaft is identical on all Panda 4x4s from 2005 onwards - although the part number changes now and again, they're all the same dimensions and interchangeable - https://desshelleyshafts.com/produc...rand-new-55193595-55197051-55222107-55264146/ for example)

- I can't comment on TwinAir engine reliability - mine's a 1.3 diesel. I can say though, the diesel has 95bhp, and a useful 200 Nm torque at 1500 rpm (the TwinAir has 145Nm at 1900 rpm) and loads of engine braking, so I feel no need for Hill Descent Control on mine. Owing to the smaller torque at higher revs, the TA versions get an extra-low first gear in the gearbox to help with the steep stuff. The top gear ratios are unchanged. On the motorway at 70, I'm seeing 2800 rpm, and I think the TwinAir is around that same figure. Most of the din at that speed is wind noise (added to by my genuine Fiat roof bars) and tyre noise

- Tyres - yes, do check: the Cross 4x4 was supplied with Goodyear Vector All Season tyres from the factory (185/65 r15 size) - although after about 2017 they were all sent out on Summer tyres of a smaller size for some reason. Mich Cross Climates often fitted as a replacement... but if any sort of summer tyres is on the car that will knobble the off road ability quite a lot!

- clutch and dual mass flywheel; again, I've had no issues (this is my third diesel 4x4 and they all have DMFs), but as with all cars with a DMF (many - petrol included - do these days), avoid snatching gear changes and crucially, avoid labouring the engine at low revs. Its the latter that leads to the greatest risk of damage. There are plenty cases of them lasting for ever, and also others failing at low mileage - so mileage per se isn't the issue, just driving style. Following the 'change now' light, especially the downward changes is key.

- something I don't think others have mentioned: there's a hefty metal under tray/sump guard on the 4x4 models, which is prone to rusting through, again especially on cars where mud and salt is not regularly washed away, and possibly more on low use cars as the trapped water doesn't get shifted from the tray. This tray should come off at every service (to reach the oil drain) but there are some folk on here who have found the bolts have rusted in place. The tray can be bought form Shop4Parts (Fiat specialist) for about £160 I think... but if not too bad, removing it and repainting with something like Hammerite seems to do the trick) - see this tread https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/rusty-sump-guard.486312/

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

My link to the propshaft supplier above seems not to work - but here's another example, same price: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174916903976

While here, this is the link to the replacement sump guard https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=34630 (now £190 - it's sneaked up a bit since I last looked )