General 4x4 Panda

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General 4x4 Panda

The DMF is actually designed so the engine can be driven at lower rpm.
They filter out torsional vibrations so the engine can run more smoothly at lower rpm, making the engine more efficient and help reduce emissions.

The usual result of using lower rpms is gear rattle and body boom but the DMF reduces that as the two masses which make up the flywheel are dampered by springs.

It's not driving at lower rpms that cause issues with them, that is a misnomer.

The main reasons they fail are excess heat due to clutch slip and abuse by engaging the clutch heavily or hamfisted gear changes that create massive torque spikes that are then transmitted through the sprung damper and bearing between the two masses, which is why they start to rattle (damper failure) then perhaps break up (bearing failure).

Parts have a life, even a solid flywheel can wear away. With a DMF, the sprung damper stops damping over time/use and the bearing can wear and become sloppy.
Obviously use isn't really measured in miles, it's gearchanges, heat and abuse.
If you travel 400 motorway miles at a time, everyday it will last far more miles than if you did 40 miles of stop start driving everyday and are perhaps hamfisted with your changes.

You can extend it's life by matching the gear with road speed as already mentioned.
When changing down it's easier to produce excess torque spikes by changing down to a lower gear when the road speed is still quite high, though it's still possible to create these torque spikes when changing up, badly!

As I wrote before, it'll happily chug about at low rpm, but trouble can arise when you don't and due to the way the Twinair revs, it's easy to want to thrash it.
 
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The propshaft bearing can be replaced separately, there are a number of companies supplying them inc:
 
The propshaft bearing can be replaced separately, there are a number of companies supplying them inc:
Whoops, just noticed that’s up to 2012
I’ll try again wehn I’ve gone through my links!
 
The propshaft bearing can be replaced separately, there are a number of companies supplying them inc:
Yes, the bearing can be bought separately (I still have one I bought for that 2005 car), but getting the shaft apart to fit it seems to be (very nearly) impossible. A whole new shaft with a new bearing seems less effort
 
Propshaft is £245 — Fiat’s price £1600
Sumpguard is £190 (sneaked up from £160)
Another Brexit ‘benefit’…it’s the same with a great deal of parts supplied by EU manufacturing
Our tractor, excavator and other agri parts have doubled from dealers, EU sourced parts have risen by 40-75 % so still cheaper that rip-off britain
 
Yes, the bearing can be bought separately (I still have one I bought for that 2005 car), but getting the shaft apart to fit it seems to be (very nearly) impossible. A whole new shaft with a new bearing seems less effort
I did it on our 2005 4x4 about six years ago with nothing more technical than a slide hammer. It took a few hefts to get it to start moving but, once it did, it flew off…I packed it full of red-rubber grease before reassembly
 
Good advice, Thanks guys

Mr Clutch came back with a quote of 400 ish but I guess this won't include the flywheel .
 
I'll add my bit here...

- Basically the (non Cross) 4x4 and Cross 4x4 have practically identical off road ability. The only things the Cross gains are Hill Descent Control (only really needed for going down slippery muddy slopes of 30 degrees or more where you might prefer not to use the brakes), and a tiny increase in off-road height through (as you say) slightly taller tyres. The approach angle has never been a problem on my regular 4x4 - the Cross has a bit less bumper to catch, but maybe at the expense of a bit less protection for the intercooler? TBH, if either bumpers were hitting the ground your probably trying to climb
something the Panda isn't really designed for (it was, of course, really more for snow-covered mountain passes rather than off road trialling).

- The thing with the propshaft bearing: the propshaft is in two sections with a universal joint between them. This is supported in metal bracket (protected in a metal cage under the centre of the car) by a rubber 'doughnut', and a bearing in the centre of that which the shaft passes through. It's not the bearing that fails, but the rubber ring holding it (academic since you can't replace one without the other).... the issue is if the rubber perishes, it's then an MOT fail. The perishing seems to happen more in low-use, low annual mileage cars. Mines done 44000 miles in four and a half years and that part looks new still, but I am quite festidious about hosing out under the car when it gets too muddy and after each road salting season - this seems to help a lot. It was starting to perish on my 2005 4x4 when I sold it in 2013... A complete new propshaft including that bearing is £260 (note: dealers want £1600!) , and easy (with the car on a lift) to remove and refit so don't be put off by horror stories on this one. (Note the propshaft is identical on all Panda 4x4s from 2005 onwards - although the part number changes now and again, they're all the same dimensions and interchangeable - https://desshelleyshafts.com/produc...rand-new-55193595-55197051-55222107-55264146/ for example)

- I can't comment on TwinAir engine reliability - mine's a 1.3 diesel. I can say though, the diesel has 95bhp, and a useful 200 Nm torque at 1500 rpm (the TwinAir has 145Nm at 1900 rpm) and loads of engine braking, so I feel no need for Hill Descent Control on mine. Owing to the smaller torque at higher revs, the TA versions get an extra-low first gear in the gearbox to help with the steep stuff. The top gear ratios are unchanged. On the motorway at 70, I'm seeing 2800 rpm, and I think the TwinAir is around that same figure. Most of the din at that speed is wind noise (added to by my genuine Fiat roof bars) and tyre noise

- Tyres - yes, do check: the Cross 4x4 was supplied with Goodyear Vector All Season tyres from the factory (185/65 r15 size) - although after about 2017 they were all sent out on Summer tyres of a smaller size for some reason. Mich Cross Climates often fitted as a replacement... but if any sort of summer tyres is on the car that will knobble the off road ability quite a lot!

- clutch and dual mass flywheel; again, I've had no issues (this is my third diesel 4x4 and they all have DMFs), but as with all cars with a DMF (many - petrol included - do these days), avoid snatching gear changes and crucially, avoid labouring the engine at low revs. Its the latter that leads to the greatest risk of damage. There are plenty cases of them lasting for ever, and also others failing at low mileage - so mileage per se isn't the issue, just driving style. Following the 'change now' light, especially the downward changes is key.

- something I don't think others have mentioned: there's a hefty metal under tray/sump guard on the 4x4 models, which is prone to rusting through, again especially on cars where mud and salt is not regularly washed away, and possibly more on low use cars as the trapped water doesn't get shifted from the tray. This tray should come off at every service (to reach the oil drain) but there are some folk on here who have found the bolts have rusted in place. The tray can be bought form Shop4Parts (Fiat specialist) for about £160 I think... but if not too bad, removing it and repainting with something like Hammerite seems to do the trick) - see this tread https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/rusty-sump-guard.486312/
I was in the Peak district in the last snowy spell and on one very steep long run down an icy road engaged hill decent control and I can say while its not something I would add at extra cost, it was amazing how it coped my wife siad she could immediately feel the car feeling much more stable and controlled so the effect must be obvious!
 
£245 for the sump guard?? I was prompted by this discussion and cut my losses (see comment above re making a repair) - just ordered new guard plus ancillary belt for £197 all up including delivery at Shop4Parts...
No! That's a misunderstanding in a post further up, where I said the guard was £160 and the propshaft £245... Guard (without this forum's discount) at Shop4Parts has gone up to £187 now...
 
Maybe best not to look up the prices direct from Fiat then :)
I took the current XC70 to a Volvo dealer for a (free) once over. They managed to find an extra 2 grand's worth of remedial work.

Sorry, for clarity, that's 2 grand more than the car cost a week earlier, not 2 grand total o_O

Gotta love a dealer 🤣
 
I had a look at another twin air , 4x4 not cross

Underneath looked OK, the metal sump guard rusty but solid. There's no other plastic under tray on it . Is there supposed to be one?

Can cellulose spray be used on the paint to touch up or is it an original water based paint?
 
I had a look at another twin air , 4x4 not cross

Underneath looked OK, the metal sump guard rusty but solid. There's no other plastic under tray on it . Is there supposed to be one?

Can cellulose spray be used on the paint to touch up or is it an original water based paint?
There's no other trays under mine, apart from the cage around the centre part of the propshaft. An earlier (2013) 4x4 I had had two smaller plastic trays – one at either side – roughly in line with the back of the rear doors towards the rear suspension. These didn't seem to offer any protection to anything, but did fill up with mud and snow - one actually came away after getting caught on deep snow. The current car didn't have these from new. On the ePER parts system they are referred to as being aerodynamic guards (or something like that). You can see a view under mine in the photo here: https://www.fiatforum.com/attachments/db3d19c9-5a5b-43db-94c3-c5223cccdb5f-jpeg.216815/ -- the cage is just visible above the exhaust pipe's flexi section.

Can't comment on the paint.
 
Rear brake condition, disc pads etc? they seem to make the pads to big for the frame, they seize, wreck discs, etc this is 2012 4x4, not sure if TA got rear discs? Could just be a tolerance issue, but had several pads sets.
 
Rear brake condition, disc pads etc? they seem to make the pads to big for the frame, they seize, wreck discs, etc this is 2012 4x4, not sure if TA got rear discs? Could just be a tolerance issue, but had several pads sets.
Never had an issue on any of mine. (Mines diesel but yes, all 4x4 versions get rear discs). Part of the key is to carry a load now and again so the rear brakes do some work. Otherwise the limiter* will bias towards the front brakes. Also mileage- I used to do 16000 a year. That’s dropped now to around 9000 but still rear brakes looking good (originals F&at at 44500 miles from new)

* I assume there is a load-sending limiter: most cars have them but not actually gone looking for it in the Panda.
 

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