jumble said:

Having had many FIATs and Alfas in the dark , distant past , then moving onto the Japanese for the reliability thing ( sorry ! ) I've now got a new Panda TwinAir Easy to join the family fleet - 2 Japs , 1 German and the Italian .

Anyway , all those years ago , with the old Alfas and FIATs there was forever the problem of them changing the spec or supplier of parts etc . Which , of course , created absolute mayhem when trying to source replacement bits . And the dealers never had a clue about any of this , " No mate , got to be the right bit . Must be you . Sorry , not taking it back . "

Well , the new FIAT needs some oil ( 5,000 miles ) to top-up to the max mark . Handbook specifies quite clearly 0W30 grade . Every local dealer I've spoken to , however , states it's 5W40 they put in . " Don't bother with the 0W30 , " they say . " We never put that in . The handbook must be wrong . Costs us too much anyway . You want the 5W40 . " Nor do they even stock the stuff .

So , once again , FIAT dealers haven't a clue . No wonder they remain hopeless in all the customer surveys . Anyway , could the fact that dealers are putting 5W40 into TwinAir engines rather than the correct specification ( possibly for the more recent engines ? ) 0W30 be the reason behind the spate of engine problems/failures and turbo issues ?

With the factory fitted oil I've been getting terrific mpg - upper 50's + . Even been in the mid 40's when driven with gusto . I suspect I'd lose this with the older , lower spec oil . To say nothing about the hidden damage going on !

Our Subaru Forester also gives great economy even though it's 4x4 and an auto . 0W20 is the grade recommended , though others can be used too .

So , I'm going to persevere for the TwinAir Panda and ignore the dealers and go for 0W30 . I'd be interested in your comments .

Click to expand...

Well I've been through this many times on the forum, Liam is right - it's a mess. I was in exactly the same dilemma with my 500 TA, manual saying 0w and fiat telling me 5w. Anyway I had the 1st service done at 10k and my fiat approved indie put in 5w as recommended by fiat, I too thought this was a safe bet. The car ran like a dog so we decided to go with 0w, they dident have any selenia digitek in stock so as a temporary measure they put in Castrol Edge 0w but c3 not c2 as it should be - the car ran much better. Indie then ordered up the correct selenia oil and put it in, I asked him to keep me the can, it turned out fiat sent them the wrong grade, it was 0w30 c2 alright but designed for diesels, WR Forward I think it was called, having said that the car ran much better on it and sounded quieter too. Eventually the correct Digitek arrived and they did yet another oil change and that's what's in the car now, 900 miles later no problems! My only doubt is to what the original 5w oil was that they put in? Did it run badly cos it was 5w or cos it was actually the wrong 5w, they said it came out of a drum so I'm not convinced it was right. Anyway my advice 5 oils later is to go with the manual and put in Selenia Digitek 0W30 C2 grade, my car likes it anyway and is running great!

The SAE30 rating is not the 'summer' viscosity but the viscosity at 100 degrees C (notional engine operating temperature). A 0W-30 oil will generally have a lower viscosity throughout the temperature range up to 100 degrees C than a 5W-30 oil. If Fiat are specifying the 0W-30 oil for the TA then they must think that this is the optimum oil during engine starting and warm up and not the 5W. I think I'll buy some Selenia 0w-30 oil and give it to the dealer when I have my car serviced.

I see that my thread has resurfaced and I was reading through it.

I didn't reply to the comment suggesting that I was trying to save money by not buying the Fiat recommended brand.

I wasn't- I just didn't want to have to go to the Fiat dealer.

As I remarked in an earlier posting - the spec comes up with a diesel oil - not a mistake.

jumble said:

Having had many FIATs and Alfas in the dark , distant past , then moving onto the Japanese for the reliability thing ( sorry ! ) I've now got a new Panda TwinAir Easy to join the family fleet - 2 Japs , 1 German and the Italian .
Anyway , all those years ago , with the old Alfas and FIATs there was forever the problem of them changing the spec or supplier of parts etc . Which , of course , created absolute mayhem when trying to source replacement bits . And the dealers never had a clue about any of this , " No mate , got to be the right bit . Must be you . Sorry , not taking it back . "
Well , the new FIAT needs some oil ( 5,000 miles ) to top-up to the max mark . Handbook specifies quite clearly 0W30 grade . Every local dealer I've spoken to , however , states it's 5W40 they put in . " Don't bother with the 0W30 , " they say . " We never put that in . The handbook must be wrong . Costs us too much anyway . You want the 5W40 . " Nor do they even stock the stuff .
So , once again , FIAT dealers haven't a clue . No wonder they remain hopeless in all the customer surveys . Anyway , could the fact that dealers are putting 5W40 into TwinAir engines rather than the correct specification ( possibly for the more recent engines ? ) 0W30 be the reason behind the spate of engine problems/failures and turbo issues ?
With the factory fitted oil I've been getting terrific mpg - upper 50's + . Even been in the mid 40's when driven with gusto . I suspect I'd lose this with the older , lower spec oil . To say nothing about the hidden damage going on !
Our Subaru Forester also gives great economy even though it's 4x4 and an auto . 0W20 is the grade recommended , though others can be used too .
So , I'm going to persevere for the TwinAir Panda and ignore the dealers and go for 0W30 . I'd be interested in your comments .

Click to expand...

Hi,
and welcome to FF,

personally I would get an oil + filter change at an Indy,
should be less than £100 with the Selenia from your vehicles handbook,
7K miles is about right for full run-in on a TwinAir,

so the next change can then wait for the 15/20K = 2 year period,

the TA needs an ECU reset for the oil-change , that's why mine has gone to a FIAT / Alfa specialist , rather then a "WE service Citroens"- "FIAT agent"

Charlie

I think the TwinAir 500 my Parents owned until Thursday (missing her already) was running on 5w 40 or 5w 30 - it was a 12 plate. Either way I made sure the oil written on the service invoices matched the manual & it appeared to run brilliantly, so I'm thinking the dealers we used might actually have got it right!

We had her serviced at 1 year/11,000 miles and then again at 2 years/21,000 miles. It had been intended to do the first service at a lower mileage than 11k but things got in the way. Once we'd had the 2nd service the dealer said we really could wait another 2 years/18k. Personally I wasn't keen but the servicing costs are so expensive at Fiat that we did wait and it would've had another service later this year, once it'd done another 18k. However sadly it's been traded in because the Parents were in need of a 5dr to make it less tricky giving lifts to Grandparents etc.

I do think the interim oil change is wise though. Even if you don't routinely go for reduced service intervals, an interim oil change during the running in period seems to be money well spent, particularly if you plan to keep the car out of warranty. I just think it's such a little engine, working pretty hard all the time, and leaving it with the same oil for 18k is too much.

It shouldn't be so confusing dudes..

Oil can be thin and slippery or it can be thick and slippery.

Thin slippery will give less resistance but more "noise" and potentially more wear.
Thick slippery will give more resistance but less noise and less wear... unless it's so thick that the engine can't pump it around quickly enough (e.g. when you start up at -10C in the winter and race off at 5000rpm, for example).

Fiat will recommend the thinnest slippery that will not cause damage to the engine, because this gives the best fuel economy (if you're trying to meet Euro-6, Euro-7 etc.) Let's say 5W40 does that job.

Later on, when Euro-8 or Euro-9 comes along, they may need to make sure their engine can cope with 0W30, to get the resistance down a bit more/economy up. They may just leave the engine alone, because it's just a bit noisier (maybe they'll decide to add some sound deadening) or they may modify any components that are a bit borderline for wear and won't work with 0W30.. but they "engineer" the car (however much or little that is) to make it work with 0W30.

If you use a 5W40 in that "0W30" motor, it won't harm the engine since it's designed for 0W30 but is essentially a 5W40 engine. It's "unlikely" (just because it's expensive) that an engine is built so finely poised that it *needs* 0W30 and 5W40 would damage it.

If you have a 0W30 oil in Finland in the dead of winter... -30C... that oil is thicker than a 5W40 oil in an engine parked in Sicily at +30C during the summer. The oil doesn't know where it it. It's just slippery stuff getting pumped around an engine that is capable of pumping oil of that voscosity.

"For Diesel" oil is a herringue rouge.. (a kind of red fish that doesn't exist). "For diesel" oil is generally a semi-synthetic oil with additional detergents and additvies, since diesel engines are the spawn of Satan and make the engine turn black and nasty. The oil needs as much detergent as it can get.

Synthetic oils have a higher spec' (ACEA A3/A4) and have additional detergents as a result. You don't see synthetic oil marketed "for diesel". Using "for diesel" oil makes no difference to the engine. It's just an oil with more or less detergent in it than the next one.

To confuse things, some engines don't like detergents but we're talking about stuff with roller bearing cranks from memory... cars from the 1960s or earlier.

Bottom line - any oil is better than no oil. Use the best brand you can find that matches the spec' in the handbook for your car. 5W40/0W30... doesn't matter. Use 5W in the summer and 0W in the winter maybe... just keep it topped up and change it every 10,000 miles... then the engine will last forever.


Ralf S.

Very illuminating. Seems to clear up a lot. Many thanks for your post.

To paraphrase that rascal Old Blair : "Oil ,oil, oil changes" is what matters most.

Not quite as easy as that, Ralf S. While all you said applies to any other engine, it does not apply to the multi/uni air system.

According to INA/Schaeffler technical documentation (licensee and distributor of the UniAir system - AKA Fiat Multi Air) - the oil viscosity must be known by the system to work out the control responses of the system, so there is an additional highly accurate temperature sensor - viscosity is then calculated from that temperature. The viscosity temperature relation is different from oil to oil (even with the same viscosity rating), so the correct function (and maybe the well-being) of the twin air engine relies on using the specified oil. In the best case the valve timings/lifts will be slightly of, in the worst case .....

Best

T

P.S. google "Technology INA UniAir® System" to find the technology white papers from INA - not allowed to post URLs on the forum

Torsten

We've seen countless posts regarding oil and the uniair system, but your last one is probably worth more than all the rest of them combined. It's the first time we've seen a logical explanation for why using the correct oil is so critical for these engines.

Following your guidance, I've attached a document from INA Schaeffler describing the system in more detail; page 13 gives specific information about this temperature sensor and the importance of using the correct grade of oil.

Torsten, that's a brilliant post and thanks to JRK for the added info. I know that I don't have a TA but to get info like that means we now know the reason for the tight spec Fiat require on this engine. The biggest issue now is to educate the Fiat dealers and also owners to ask for 100% proof that the correct oil has been used.

jrkitching said:

Torsten

We've seen countless posts regarding oil and the uniair system, but your last one is probably worth more than all the rest of them combined. It's the first time we've seen a logical explanation for why using the correct oil is so critical for these engines.

Following your guidance, I've attached a document from INA Schaeffler describing the system in more detail; page 13 gives specific information about this temperature sensor and the importance of using the correct grade of oil.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I'm a chartered engineer, specialising in fluid dynamics, thermohydraulics and rheology. So it's part of the job to know this.

Much to the dismay to the dealership that sold me my new Panda 4x4 twinair which had the wrong oil put in (cheap full synth 5W40) during the service before sale. Attempts to BS me were successfully deflected

Apparently the vehicle information system had the wrong oil listed, so it may be worth checking with the garage that they have the right data and specifications. The invoice stated "to manufacturers specification" just above the wrong oil.

The correct oil (with respect to UniAir/MultiAir) is critical.

For my 500X Multiair is also did a lot of research.

See https://www.fiatforum.com/500x/456202-1st-annual-service.html?p=4311440

What I don't understand is how the Shell Helix 0W30 can say they are C2/C3.

All other manufacturers I spoke to who do a 0W30 C3 would not recommend it's use in the 500X MultiAir. C2 and C3 are distinct specification requirements. You can't really have both. So Shell Helix 0W30 C2/C3 is a no go.

We are frequently told that 97% of engine and transmission wear takes place during the startup and warmup period. One draws the inference that oils are specified by the vehicle makers to recognise and cope with this circumstance. Some engines have been constructed in the past with electric oil and water pumps, which are run for several minutes before startup and after shutdown, to allow wearing surfaces an easier time of it [Sulzer LDA series].

Can it be inferred therefore, that in warm climates such as Spain, where the oil gets round quicker after a start, the quality of the oil can be of reduced importance?

Hi.
Surely in a warmer climate the use of a thinner oil viscosity would mean that the oil is more likely to drain back to the sump easier as the warmer engine will make the oil easier to drain.
The whole idea of doing oil changes for example is with a hot engine so its drains easier so the same scenario exists. I remember in days gone by on a hot day after a hard run that the following days cold or cool start that there could be a little bit of rattling until the oil pressure light went out. A thicker oil is less likely to drain and is more likely to leave a film on the bearing surfaces.
Modern engines though have through engineering advances better oil pumps and tighter clearances that obviously need a low viscosity oil for the same protection.

The quality of oil is important no matter where you live including the climate. Different oil specs have different additive packages for different engines. One such thing is for modern engines with puny timing chains like the MJ engines, Ford units and the MG3, use the wrong spec and you'll need a new chain and valves etc within 70, 000 miles.
Hot climates though still need a higher viscosity of oil.

Torsten S said:

Thanks for that. I'm a chartered engineer, specialising in fluid dynamics, thermohydraulics and rheology. So it's part of the job to know this.

Much to the dismay to the dealership that sold me my new Panda 4x4 twinair which had the wrong oil put in (cheap full synth 5W40) during the service before sale. Attempts to BS me were successfully deflected

Apparently the vehicle information system had the wrong oil listed, so it may be worth checking with the garage that they have the right data and specifications. The invoice stated "to manufacturers specification" just above the wrong oil.

Click to expand...

You are a star; official Myth Buster! I had so much BS around my 4x4 TA (uniair module failed at 50k miles).

Quote from the attachment "The switching valves carry out around 330 million switching
operations each during the operating life of the system. This
number of switching cycles at the required precision poses a
significant challenge for the development of the switching valve."

A significant challenge indeed!

Panda IIs said:

Quote from the attachment "The switching valves carry out around 330 million switching
operations each during the operating life of the system. This
number of switching cycles at the required precision poses a
significant challenge for the development of the switching valve."

A significant challenge indeed!

Click to expand...

And one which someone wanting reliability and low cost motoring in a long term keeper would do well to bear in mind.

I'd say it's an engine worth putting on your shortlist if you're in the market for a car you're going to return at the end of a 3yr pcp, but one to avoid at the first opportunity if buying secondhand with the intention of keeping until it falls apart.

I can only agree, but with the full FIAT service history might still be worth a punt for the fun?!

In the same vein; I have never understood folk cost cutting on oil and filters, I do get the feeling of being fleeced when comparing high end oil costs with "own brands" but this is the lifeblood of any engine, treat it right and generally it will be good to you in return.

I do realise that some have to operate on a tight budget but a good (and therefore probably more expensive) oil does not add significantly to the years running costs.

Anyways the pdf download is invaluable insight so thank you all.

I'm on the fence here. I think the advances in modern engine technology are quite amazing......... but for sheer reliability many engines designed in the 80's & 90's win hands down. The FIRE unit, the XUD PSA diesels, VW 5 Cylinder units and others go on for ever. My Panda will be my last unless it's written off by an accident. I actually wonder if a 12 year old TA with 144, 000 miles would just get through with normal servicing

There's a gent on here who saw a TA breathing it's last at 125k as part of his job. The 1.2 lasted 192k I think it was. I could get my mechanic to get the Petronas equivalent of Selenia next time I'm sure and oil change around £90 again (he put 0w 30 C3 in my previous one). Spending £180 year on two oil changes with the right spec no hardship when an engine allegedly £11k.