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Old 02-07-2014   #16
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

I think what's worth remembering,
oil has a grade
0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30, 5W-40, 10W-40 etc

And and Spec,
either a manufacturers (car makers) spec
Fiat 9.55535-G1, 9.55535-G2, 9.55535-H2, etc
Ford M2C913-B, M2C913-C etc
VW 502.00, 503.00 etc

Some are successors, so an engine requiring M2C913-B can happily use M2C913-C as C replaced B sometime ago.
Some aren't.

Or
an oil industry spec which are set by different institutes depending on where in the world it's made and tested
ACEA *** (Euro)
API SAE *** (USA)
JASO *** (Japan)

Needless to say, you need the right Grade AND Spec.
Which is harder than it appears, as oil develops faster than manufacturer print or rewite handbooks.
(up till 2009 Jaguar H/B's didn't recognise Synthetic oil)

Handbooks cover all climates, Siberia to the Uconn Delta, so grades will over lap.

In the handbook, the spec could be in any format, industry (and in any institute format) or manufacturers (usually one oil will met many manufacturers specs)

On a worrying note, the main reason for turbo failure these days is owners sticking the wrong oil in, as the turbo bearing is really oil pumped into a small passage so the shaft "floats" on oil.
The wrong oil really buggers this up!
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Last edited by Goudrons; 02-07-2014 at 08:45.
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Old 16-05-2015   #17
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Smile Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Having had many FIATs and Alfas in the dark , distant past , then moving onto the Japanese for the reliability thing ( sorry ! ) I've now got a new Panda TwinAir Easy to join the family fleet - 2 Japs , 1 German and the Italian .
Anyway , all those years ago , with the old Alfas and FIATs there was forever the problem of them changing the spec or supplier of parts etc . Which , of course , created absolute mayhem when trying to source replacement bits . And the dealers never had a clue about any of this , " No mate , got to be the right bit . Must be you . Sorry , not taking it back . "
Well , the new FIAT needs some oil ( 5,000 miles ) to top-up to the max mark . Handbook specifies quite clearly 0W30 grade . Every local dealer I've spoken to , however , states it's 5W40 they put in . " Don't bother with the 0W30 , " they say . " We never put that in . The handbook must be wrong . Costs us too much anyway . You want the 5W40 . " Nor do they even stock the stuff .
So , once again , FIAT dealers haven't a clue . No wonder they remain hopeless in all the customer surveys . Anyway , could the fact that dealers are putting 5W40 into TwinAir engines rather than the correct specification ( possibly for the more recent engines ? ) 0W30 be the reason behind the spate of engine problems/failures and turbo issues ?
With the factory fitted oil I've been getting terrific mpg - upper 50's + . Even been in the mid 40's when driven with gusto . I suspect I'd lose this with the older , lower spec oil . To say nothing about the hidden damage going on !
Our Subaru Forester also gives great economy even though it's 4x4 and an auto . 0W20 is the grade recommended , though others can be used too .
So , I'm going to persevere for the TwinAir Panda and ignore the dealers and go for 0W30 . I'd be interested in your comments .
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Old 16-05-2015   #18
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

the two numbers in a oil rating apply to Winter (the 'W') and Summer viscosities. It rarely is cold enough to need 0Wxx oil in the UK. But an oil marked 0Wxx will be 'thinner' or 'runnier' when its cold than one marked 5Wxx giving an easier cold start. The figure after the W shows the viscosity in summer. Too low a warm rating is more of a problem than too high a W figure.

Here's an interesting read: http://www.driverstechnology.co.uk/oils.htm and (techy talk alert) http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto..._explained.htm
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Old 16-05-2015   #19
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Fiat and oils are just blo*dy hopeless. They need to work out a reliable database that dealers can put the customers VIN or reg number into, and get accurate oil spec info, based on the vehicles build date. If they have one already clearly the dealers tend not to use it, because they never seem to know about oil. Either that or Fiat in Italy need to pick an oil spec and stick to it, instead of changing every year, especially with engines like the TwinAir/MultiAir, which are so damn fussy anyway.

Another massive bugbear of mine are the amount of dealers using other brands of oil to Selenia. Fiats service charges are pretty damned expensive for average car brand standards, so when you're paying what they charge, the least you expect is the exact oil recommended in the handbook. I recently had my Alfa MiTo serviced. The dealership was excellent, but even they used Shell Helix. Now, it might be better than Selenia, I've no idea, but if you're paying nearly £300 for a service (and they were the cheapest quote) at a Fiat/Alfa main dealer, I expect them to follow the handbook to the letter, and that includes oil. My experience seems just the same (in terms of price and different oil brands) as Fiat owners on here. My Parents were quoted £370 at two different dealers for a 500 TwinAir service, and I've no idea if that was for Selenia oil either

Personally in the OPs case I would go with what the handbook says. At least then if/when the UniAir control plays up, he can show Fiat the invoice and the service book and prove that he only used what they recommended - you can guarantee the dealer won't wanna know if it all goes ti*s up with their oil choice!
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Old 16-05-2015   #20
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

I've never any issues with putting the right oil in Fiats, Lancias and Alfas in 50 years. The TA engine HAS to have the right oil in it as the viscosity of the oil plays an integral part in controlling the valve timing (as I understand it) - my 4x4 TA has done just over 24,000 miles in 22 months; I changed the oil after the first 5,000 miles and then after I'd had it a year and it will get another service/oil change in July/August. Oil consumption is zero - so my topping-up supply - which caused some confusion at the factors as it's a diesel spec - has been unopened in two years.
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Old 16-05-2015   #21
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Quote Originally Posted by jumble View Post
Having had many FIATs and Alfas in the dark , distant past , then moving onto the Japanese for the reliability thing ( sorry ! ) I've now got a new Panda TwinAir Easy to join the family fleet - 2 Japs , 1 German and the Italian .

Anyway , all those years ago , with the old Alfas and FIATs there was forever the problem of them changing the spec or supplier of parts etc . Which , of course , created absolute mayhem when trying to source replacement bits . And the dealers never had a clue about any of this , " No mate , got to be the right bit . Must be you . Sorry , not taking it back . "

Well , the new FIAT needs some oil ( 5,000 miles ) to top-up to the max mark . Handbook specifies quite clearly 0W30 grade . Every local dealer I've spoken to , however , states it's 5W40 they put in . " Don't bother with the 0W30 , " they say . " We never put that in . The handbook must be wrong . Costs us too much anyway . You want the 5W40 . " Nor do they even stock the stuff .

So , once again , FIAT dealers haven't a clue . No wonder they remain hopeless in all the customer surveys . Anyway , could the fact that dealers are putting 5W40 into TwinAir engines rather than the correct specification ( possibly for the more recent engines ? ) 0W30 be the reason behind the spate of engine problems/failures and turbo issues ?

With the factory fitted oil I've been getting terrific mpg - upper 50's + . Even been in the mid 40's when driven with gusto . I suspect I'd lose this with the older , lower spec oil . To say nothing about the hidden damage going on !

Our Subaru Forester also gives great economy even though it's 4x4 and an auto . 0W20 is the grade recommended , though others can be used too .

So , I'm going to persevere for the TwinAir Panda and ignore the dealers and go for 0W30 . I'd be interested in your comments .

Well I've been through this many times on the forum, Liam is right - it's a mess. I was in exactly the same dilemma with my 500 TA, manual saying 0w and fiat telling me 5w. Anyway I had the 1st service done at 10k and my fiat approved indie put in 5w as recommended by fiat, I too thought this was a safe bet. The car ran like a dog so we decided to go with 0w, they dident have any selenia digitek in stock so as a temporary measure they put in Castrol Edge 0w but c3 not c2 as it should be - the car ran much better. Indie then ordered up the correct selenia oil and put it in, I asked him to keep me the can, it turned out fiat sent them the wrong grade, it was 0w30 c2 alright but designed for diesels, WR Forward I think it was called, having said that the car ran much better on it and sounded quieter too. Eventually the correct Digitek arrived and they did yet another oil change and that's what's in the car now, 900 miles later no problems! My only doubt is to what the original 5w oil was that they put in? Did it run badly cos it was 5w or cos it was actually the wrong 5w, they said it came out of a drum so I'm not convinced it was right. Anyway my advice 5 oils later is to go with the manual and put in Selenia Digitek 0W30 C2 grade, my car likes it anyway and is running great! Click image for larger version

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Old 16-05-2015   #22
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

The SAE30 rating is not the 'summer' viscosity but the viscosity at 100 degrees C (notional engine operating temperature). A 0W-30 oil will generally have a lower viscosity throughout the temperature range up to 100 degrees C than a 5W-30 oil. If Fiat are specifying the 0W-30 oil for the TA then they must think that this is the optimum oil during engine starting and warm up and not the 5W. I think I'll buy some Selenia 0w-30 oil and give it to the dealer when I have my car serviced.
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Old 16-05-2015   #23
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

I see that my thread has resurfaced and I was reading through it.

I didn't reply to the comment suggesting that I was trying to save money by not buying the Fiat recommended brand.

I wasn't- I just didn't want to have to go to the Fiat dealer.
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Old 16-05-2015   #24
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

As I remarked in an earlier posting - the spec comes up with a diesel oil - not a mistake.
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Old 16-05-2015   #25
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Quote Originally Posted by jumble View Post
Having had many FIATs and Alfas in the dark , distant past , then moving onto the Japanese for the reliability thing ( sorry ! ) I've now got a new Panda TwinAir Easy to join the family fleet - 2 Japs , 1 German and the Italian .
Anyway , all those years ago , with the old Alfas and FIATs there was forever the problem of them changing the spec or supplier of parts etc . Which , of course , created absolute mayhem when trying to source replacement bits . And the dealers never had a clue about any of this , " No mate , got to be the right bit . Must be you . Sorry , not taking it back . "
Well , the new FIAT needs some oil ( 5,000 miles ) to top-up to the max mark . Handbook specifies quite clearly 0W30 grade . Every local dealer I've spoken to , however , states it's 5W40 they put in . " Don't bother with the 0W30 , " they say . " We never put that in . The handbook must be wrong . Costs us too much anyway . You want the 5W40 . " Nor do they even stock the stuff .
So , once again , FIAT dealers haven't a clue . No wonder they remain hopeless in all the customer surveys . Anyway , could the fact that dealers are putting 5W40 into TwinAir engines rather than the correct specification ( possibly for the more recent engines ? ) 0W30 be the reason behind the spate of engine problems/failures and turbo issues ?
With the factory fitted oil I've been getting terrific mpg - upper 50's + . Even been in the mid 40's when driven with gusto . I suspect I'd lose this with the older , lower spec oil . To say nothing about the hidden damage going on !
Our Subaru Forester also gives great economy even though it's 4x4 and an auto . 0W20 is the grade recommended , though others can be used too .
So , I'm going to persevere for the TwinAir Panda and ignore the dealers and go for 0W30 . I'd be interested in your comments .
Hi,
and welcome to FF,

personally I would get an oil + filter change at an Indy,
should be less than £100 with the Selenia from your vehicles handbook,
7K miles is about right for full run-in on a TwinAir,

so the next change can then wait for the 15/20K = 2 year period,

the TA needs an ECU reset for the oil-change , that's why mine has gone to a FIAT / Alfa specialist , rather then a "WE service Citroens"- "FIAT agent"

Charlie
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Old 17-05-2015   #26
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

I think the TwinAir 500 my Parents owned until Thursday (missing her already) was running on 5w 40 or 5w 30 - it was a 12 plate. Either way I made sure the oil written on the service invoices matched the manual & it appeared to run brilliantly, so I'm thinking the dealers we used might actually have got it right!

We had her serviced at 1 year/11,000 miles and then again at 2 years/21,000 miles. It had been intended to do the first service at a lower mileage than 11k but things got in the way. Once we'd had the 2nd service the dealer said we really could wait another 2 years/18k. Personally I wasn't keen but the servicing costs are so expensive at Fiat that we did wait and it would've had another service later this year, once it'd done another 18k. However sadly it's been traded in because the Parents were in need of a 5dr to make it less tricky giving lifts to Grandparents etc.

I do think the interim oil change is wise though. Even if you don't routinely go for reduced service intervals, an interim oil change during the running in period seems to be money well spent, particularly if you plan to keep the car out of warranty. I just think it's such a little engine, working pretty hard all the time, and leaving it with the same oil for 18k is too much.
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Old 20-05-2015   #27
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

It shouldn't be so confusing dudes..

Oil can be thin and slippery or it can be thick and slippery.

Thin slippery will give less resistance but more "noise" and potentially more wear.
Thick slippery will give more resistance but less noise and less wear... unless it's so thick that the engine can't pump it around quickly enough (e.g. when you start up at -10C in the winter and race off at 5000rpm, for example).

Fiat will recommend the thinnest slippery that will not cause damage to the engine, because this gives the best fuel economy (if you're trying to meet Euro-6, Euro-7 etc.) Let's say 5W40 does that job.

Later on, when Euro-8 or Euro-9 comes along, they may need to make sure their engine can cope with 0W30, to get the resistance down a bit more/economy up. They may just leave the engine alone, because it's just a bit noisier (maybe they'll decide to add some sound deadening) or they may modify any components that are a bit borderline for wear and won't work with 0W30.. but they "engineer" the car (however much or little that is) to make it work with 0W30.

If you use a 5W40 in that "0W30" motor, it won't harm the engine since it's designed for 0W30 but is essentially a 5W40 engine. It's "unlikely" (just because it's expensive) that an engine is built so finely poised that it *needs* 0W30 and 5W40 would damage it.

If you have a 0W30 oil in Finland in the dead of winter... -30C... that oil is thicker than a 5W40 oil in an engine parked in Sicily at +30C during the summer. The oil doesn't know where it it. It's just slippery stuff getting pumped around an engine that is capable of pumping oil of that voscosity.

"For Diesel" oil is a herringue rouge.. (a kind of red fish that doesn't exist). "For diesel" oil is generally a semi-synthetic oil with additional detergents and additvies, since diesel engines are the spawn of Satan and make the engine turn black and nasty. The oil needs as much detergent as it can get.

Synthetic oils have a higher spec' (ACEA A3/A4) and have additional detergents as a result. You don't see synthetic oil marketed "for diesel". Using "for diesel" oil makes no difference to the engine. It's just an oil with more or less detergent in it than the next one.

To confuse things, some engines don't like detergents but we're talking about stuff with roller bearing cranks from memory... cars from the 1960s or earlier.

Bottom line - any oil is better than no oil. Use the best brand you can find that matches the spec' in the handbook for your car. 5W40/0W30... doesn't matter. Use 5W in the summer and 0W in the winter maybe... just keep it topped up and change it every 10,000 miles... then the engine will last forever.


Ralf S.
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Old 22-05-2015   #28
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Very illuminating. Seems to clear up a lot. Many thanks for your post.

To paraphrase that rascal Old Blair : "Oil ,oil, oil changes" is what matters most.
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Old 23-04-2018   #29
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Not quite as easy as that, Ralf S. While all you said applies to any other engine, it does not apply to the multi/uni air system.

According to INA/Schaeffler technical documentation (licensee and distributor of the UniAir system - AKA Fiat Multi Air) - the oil viscosity must be known by the system to work out the control responses of the system, so there is an additional highly accurate temperature sensor - viscosity is then calculated from that temperature. The viscosity temperature relation is different from oil to oil (even with the same viscosity rating), so the correct function (and maybe the well-being) of the twin air engine relies on using the specified oil. In the best case the valve timings/lifts will be slightly of, in the worst case .....

Best

T

P.S. google "Technology INA UniAir® System" to find the technology white papers from INA - not allowed to post URLs on the forum
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Old 23-04-2018   #30
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Torsten

We've seen countless posts regarding oil and the uniair system, but your last one is probably worth more than all the rest of them combined. It's the first time we've seen a logical explanation for why using the correct oil is so critical for these engines.

Following your guidance, I've attached a document from INA Schaeffler describing the system in more detail; page 13 gives specific information about this temperature sensor and the importance of using the correct grade of oil.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf document.pdf (2.03 MB, 163 views)
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