StevenRB45 said:

It was my understanding was that was an in use calculation rather than well to wheel however if I'm wrong awesome.

50 mpg versus 150 isn't great but unless energy required takes into account production and disposal it's not a true reflection.

Effectively the more efficient the standard car you are replacing is the longer the longer the payback period gets.

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I believe the MPGe for things like a tesla are more like 95 - 100mpge which is largely because electric motors don’t expend so much energy I heated/wasted exhaust and radiated heat from the engine. If you think a lot of cars are rated using similar testing procedures as electric cars at between 60 -75 mpg is 100mpge that much of a step up, given the cost?

AndyRKett said:

I believe the MPGe for things like a tesla are more like 95 - 100mpge which is largely because electric motors don’t expend so much energy I heated/wasted exhaust and radiated heat from the engine. If you think a lot of cars are rated using similar testing procedures as electric cars at between 60 -75 mpg is 100mpge that much of a step up, given the cost?

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I'd like to see more research done outside of the American context.

When big inefficient cars are covering large distances the efficiency of electric makes sense.

But in a european context the only study I've seen put the pay back period at 435000miles or shortly after never in the case of most cars. This is a heavily contested study (as you'd imagine!!), but as no one appears to have published one that covers smaller cars doing smaller mileages and how this affects the balance it's the only one available.

StevenRB45 said:

But in a european context the only study I've seen put the pay back period at 435000miles or shortly after never in the case of most cars.

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Depends on what you mean by pay back period, something like the new electric mini which is specced similarly to the Mini Cooper S, but the electric version will be cheaper than the petrol version.

In the case of something like a model S the car sold in the same field as the likes of an BMW 5 series or E class, and like for like are a similar price.

The main problems in the past have been something like a Nissan Leaf costing over £30k when the equivalent petrol Nissan would have been £18-20k, but the prices of petrol/diesel cars is going up rapidly while electric car prices are coming down.

AndyRKett said:

Depends on what you mean by pay back period, something like the new electric mini which is specced similarly to the Mini Cooper S, but the electric version will be cheaper than the petrol version.

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Environmental payback, so the point at which the electric car becomes cleaner overall than the ICE car.

The issue with trying to get numbers on it as that it varies massively depending on where your electricity is generated, how you use the vehicle and how long the vehicle is reasonably expected to last.

If the point at which the car becomes cleaner is beyond the life expectancy of it there is literally no point in the whole exercise of going electric. As a result it's quite an important bit of information to know.

I think with electric cars not only will they be much more recyclable, but the battery pack which has to be the most environmentally unfriendly part, will largely be reused in other things, I know Renault has a deal with a company that makes power walls to reuse the batteries from battery packs at the end of life. Batteries may also be reengineered to reuse on older electric cars with bad cells much like we do with bits and bobs off scrapped cars. Non of this aftermarket activity will count towards the CO2 picture of a car when calculations are done, but a car battery recycled into a power wall has significant and obvious implications for further environmental savings.

Petrol and diesel cars are not only unable to be recycled in the same way but get very dirty and contaminated, resulting in a lot of environmental contamination at the end of life.

People are less likely to scrap a car when the battery pack still has significant value in it, again leading to cars being reused and recycled rather than dumped.

There is no real reason an electric motor in a car should go wrong, and could be good for an easy 500k Miles where as a petrol engine is subject to a lot of wear and tear from the whole internal combustion operation.

This is why teslas don’t reslly loose much value as they are even cheaper to run in terms of repairs and servicing.

Dodgems are the best electric car

GeorgeDamper said:

Dodgems are the best electric car

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They’re also extremely reliable and proven technology for what must be countless decades now?!

As the 2 companies have now signed on the dotted lines, the original question remains: what will happen now that Fiat and Peugeot have merged? It'll certainly be interesting to see if Fiat are able to produce some fresh cars.

They have said they won’t close any factories. Vauxhall are now complaining saying it’s not right if they are left out of future investments, the financial side of things looks a bit of a mess at the moment, however the main thing we all want to see here is if Fiat will update their line up which is long over due, I also hope they bring back the Punto, it seems stupid for a manufacturer of small cars to have such a big hole in its line up

AndyRKett said:

the main thing we all want to see here is if Fiat will update their line up which is long over due, I also hope they bring back the Punto, it seems stupid for a manufacturer of small cars to have such a big hole in its line up

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They absolutely need to do something with their lineup, I may need to be corrected on this but the 500 is based on the Panda from 2003 and up until they stopped selling the Punto it was dating back to 2005. I'm not sure if the 500L/X & Tipo are on a new platform but they need to renew something, all we've been getting from Fiat for years now is the same car facelifted time and time again.

I'm assuming this merger will allow Fiat to develop on Peugeots small car platform, which will probably mean they'll be selling a Peugeot with a different body and badge but its probably better than what they're doing now...

Didge3 said:

They absolutely need to do something with their lineup, I may need to be corrected on this but the 500 is based on the Panda from 2003 and up until they stopped selling the Punto it was dating back to 2005. I'm not sure if the 500L/X & Tipo are on a new platform but they need to renew something, all we've been getting from Fiat for years now is the same car facelifted time and time again.

I'm assuming this merger will allow Fiat to develop on Peugeots small car platform, which will probably mean they'll be selling a Peugeot with a different body and badge but its probably better than what they're doing now...

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500x is running on a jeep platform
500l/tipo share some of the running gear don't know if they are based off another car

As I understand it, the Tipo and 500L are running off a modified Punto platform, so almost as ancient as the 500/Panda platform. Not going to make any assumptions, but I'm excited to see what happens here.

Didge3 said:

I'm assuming this merger will allow Fiat to develop on Peugeots small car platform, which will probably mean they'll be selling a Peugeot with a different body and badge but its probably better than what they're doing now...

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That's exactly what they've done with the Vauxhall / Opel Corsa.

It's a re-skinned 208.

Eklipze3k said:

As I understand it, the Tipo and 500L are running off a modified Punto platform, so almost as ancient as the 500/Panda platform. Not going to make any assumptions, but I'm excited to see what happens here.

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chris3234 said:

500x is running on a jeep platform
500l/tipo share some of the running gear don't know if they are based off another car

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chris3234 as above the tipo and 500l are on a modified Gm Punto/corsa platform, it’s worth noting that the 500x and the Jeep renegade are also built on this same GM Punto platform, it’s not a Jeep platform.

A platform in all essence is a list of measurements that can be applied to a floor pan when it’s being designed so that already exhausting parts will fit it. When designing new or upgraded parts for new applications that have a set of measurements with which to design too. The same goes for a subframe or an engine, the measurements are already in place taking the headache out of trying to work out how a different engine can be made to fit, you just make the engine to meet the specs of other engines on that platform.

It makes designing new cars a lot like putting lego together.

Schumi2001 said:

That's exactly what they've done with the Vauxhall / Opel Corsa.

It's a re-skinned 208.

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The reviews I've seen of it prefer it to the 208...calling it the best Corsa ever (that bar is probably about shin high).

I read a few articles around launch, apparently they had quite a significant amount of freedom regards none mechanical items and tuning.

Whether or not anyone who enjoys engineering would still work for Fiat after 20 years of the selling pretty much the same cars is another question but it seems the building blocks are pretty good.

I don't read a lot of reviews unless it's for a car that may be on my company car list, but I've just had a look at What Car? - the new Corsa gets 3/5 whilst the 208 gets 4/5. Both are beaten by the Polo.

Depends on the reviewer, new corsa is a firmer set up than 208.

One I read preferred it as it was more fun in use than the softer 208 and also didn't have the tiddly steering wheel and had physical heating controls. As result they preferred it though reviewing is always a subjective art.

Both share the lovely 6 speed gearbox though, if you're a man who enjoys fishing it's perfect..

Even if it's not class leading being in the class at all is an improvement on the current score.

Schumi2001 said:

I don't read a lot of reviews unless it's for a car that may be on my company car list, but I've just had a look at What Car? - the new Corsa gets 3/5 whilst the 208 gets 4/5. Both are beaten by the Polo.

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Tbh, I'd take that with a ton of salt: I don't even read current car magazines anymore, yet I'd almost bet actual money on them waxing lyrical about pretty much anything made by ford or vag.

With regards to the latest Corsa, whilst I'm yet to see 1 in the flesh, that and the C3 are by far the best looking superminis on sale, though given what turds the rest of them are, that's not really saying much. [emoji52]

I can well believe the Polo is on a different level. They have a much more 'premium' feel, even if that means sacrificing toys. I've not driven the very latest one, but the last generation almost made the Golf redundant.

As for Ford and the Fiesta - the last generation was good, but quality was terrible. The new one is a damned good car - and great fun to drive in 125bhp ST-Line form. Quality isn't quite up there with the Polo, but it's a big leap forward.

Schumi2001 said:

I can well believe the Polo is on a different level. They have a much more 'premium' feel, even if that means sacrificing toys. I've not driven the very latest one, but the last generation almost made the Golf redundant.

As for Ford and the Fiesta - the last generation was good, but quality was terrible. The new one is a damned good car - and great fun to drive in 125bhp ST-Line form. Quality isn't quite up there with the Polo, but it's a big leap forward.

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I’ve driven the new polo last year, it’s a very good little car and a significant improvement on the last one the last one was good so it tells you something about the new model. That said the £18,000 price tag of the model I drove was eye watering for a small car, and the significant increase in size meant it was basically a golf in polo clothing