Peugeot Fiat

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Peugeot Fiat

I’ve driven the new polo last year, it’s a very good little car and a significant improvement on the last one the last one was good so it tells you something about the new model. That said the £18,000 price tag of the model I drove was eye watering for a small car, and the significant increase in size meant it was basically a golf in polo clothing

Prices of superminis have gone mental as of late, My wifes in October 2017 was list 16.5k discounted by 2500 at purchase. Same car now is 18.5k list which is hilarious and very much doubt anyone is paying that for a C3! The cars for sale on auto trader suggest real pricing hasn't moved at all.

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Equivalent Polo is 21k list but tbf the last Polo in a similar spec was also 21k list. This is not going mental with options either, just making sure it has climate control, park assist with a rear view camera and a spare wheel. Oh and an engine that can keep up with traffic though even the 115 polo is slower than the 110 C3.

Fiesta is a similar if not more mental price range, but you don't know what price they are rolling off the showroom carpet at.
 
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The in laws had an old focus for many years and it was an awful car, as was the Mondeo, both made me feel slightly nauseous. Far worse than similar generation Punto, which I'm sorry but never rated. The old Panda or even Cinquecento were much more enjoyable in that year group!

However Ford have conserably improved in my view, his new Ecosport 1l pot is actually quite ok to travel in and feels nippy enough. Pricey though, guess that is a supermini!? Fiesta on steroids.

The dash looks like a horny 15 year old boy designed it, buttons thrown everywhere, with faintly female shapes, truly horrible. Outside some new Fords look good to me, pity the inside has not also grown up.
And a cheeky edit to bring back to the thread, would consider either Peugeot or Fiat in future, already driving a joint collaborative vehicle and it is cost effective and good for us, better than Ford anyway.
 
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£21k for a Polo. You can get a Polo G40 for £2500 (if you don't mind the 188k miles on the clock)
 
Beating the Polo and Fiesta isn't necessarily important, when the price difference is measured in whole Dacia Sanderos there's room to slot in below them.

If they pitch Punto around C3 level so between 12-16k then it's at a level that neither the Fiesta or Polo really work at now. They are available..but they are absolutely grim boxes at that price.

You don't have to lead the class necessarily if your car is keenly priced and good enough. C3 certainly worked for PSA, released to a collective Meh! from most of the motoring press it sold 300,000 cars quickly because it was something different and competitively priced. The old Corsa was a perennial seller despite being decrepit by being cheap and well specced and looking not bad.
 
Prices of superminis have gone mental as of late, My wifes in October 2017 was list 16.5k discounted by 2500 at purchase. Same car now is 18.5k list which is hilarious and very much doubt anyone is paying that for a C3! The cars for sale on auto trader suggest real pricing hasn't moved at all.

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Equivalent Polo is 21k list but tbf the last Polo in a similar spec was also 21k list. This is not going mental with options either, just making sure it has climate control, park assist with a rear view camera and a spare wheel. Oh and an engine that can keep up with traffic though even the 115 polo is slower than the 110 C3.

Fiesta is a similar if not more mental price range, but you don't know what price they are rolling off the showroom carpet at.

That doesn't tell the whole story, though. And it's back to the toys vs quality argument. I've not driven a new C3, but I had a DS3 a few years ago as a courtesy car - it was truly dreadful. Cheap materials, everything was over-assisted and it was just not nice to drive at all.

Then there's the residuals - most people 'buying' new are leasing, so list price means nothing - it's all about the monthly costs. You can get a Polo GTI DSG for about 800 quid down and £203 / month on a 4 year / 10k mile deal. That's only marginally more than a C3 Flair. I know where my money would go!
 
Tbh, I'd take that with a ton of salt: I don't even read current car magazines anymore, yet I'd almost bet actual money on them waxing lyrical about pretty much anything made by ford or vag.

With regards to the latest Corsa, whilst I'm yet to see 1 in the flesh, that and the C3 are by far the best looking superminis on sale, though given what turds the rest of them are, that's not really saying much. [emoji52]



Yeah I agree, I remember one of them online had the most reliable and least reliable cars ranked.... the most reliable was a Polo, the least reliable... an A1... go figure lol same car!
 
Then there's the residuals - most people 'buying' new are leasing, so list price means nothing - it's all about the monthly costs. You can get a Polo GTI DSG for about 800 quid down and £203 / month on a 4 year / 10k mile deal. That's only marginally more than a C3 Flair. I know where my money would go!

Erm Cap puts retained residual value of a C3 at 43% after 3 years..take a guess at the VW Polo figure?

43% it's only worth more because 43% of 20k is more than 43% of 14.5k. I was surprised by this as for example the new clio holds 46% so all those cheap lease deals must be pushing residuals down.

Tbf they occupy different markets effectively and appeal to different people. If you want a Polo you'll buy one, if you want a small interesting car you'd not buy a Polo in a million years with the possible exception of the GTI.

However don't get too hung up on the C3 itself..its more an example of how an average car that is done in an interesting way can sell well even if it's actually not that good!
 
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Erm Cap puts retained residual value of a C3 at 43% after 3 years..take a guess at the VW Polo figure?

43% it's only worth more because 43% of 20k is more than 43% of 14.5k. I was surprised by this as for example the new clio holds 46% so all those cheap lease deals must be pushing residuals down.

Tbf they occupy different markets effectively and appeal to different people. If you want a Polo you'll buy one, if you want a small interesting car you'd not buy a Polo in a million years with the possible exception of the GTI.

However don't get too hung up on the C3 itself..its more an example of how an average car that is done in an interesting way can sell well even if it's actually not that good!
I suspect that the current fad of leasing a car has flooded the 2nd hand market, thus keeping prices down.
 
Lease rates often predict a value better than CAP for nearly new cars. Hence high end Polos, A1s etc are competitive against cheaper cars.

It's why we lost PSA (incl. GM Europe) and Ford from our company car choices. They just couldn't offer competitive rates due to terrible residual values.
 
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Lease rates often predict a value better than CAP for nearly new cars. Hence high end Polos, A1s etc are competitive against cheaper cars.

It's why we lost PSA (incl. GM Europe) and Ford from our company car choices. They just couldn't offer competitive rates due to terrible residual values.

Odd the Clio is cheaper to lease than the Polo..

it's almost like the Polo doesn't hold it's value that well.

I've seen cheap GTIs in a few places I can only assume they think they will buck the trend compared to standard Polos as it's cheaper to get a GTI on Lease than a 1.0 turbo.

Company car schemes dropped none premium marques years ago, no one wants a high miles Ford, VX, Pug or whatever. Same reason the police moved to Bmws and Mercs, people will stay pay for them even with intergalactic miles.

Anyway..miles off topic, my point is, even if Psa/Fiat dont compete at the top of the market with the best they can pick up sales bottom and middle as long as the car is reasonably priced and interesting enough to get people to look. You get cash and HP buyers at this level as well as leasing, so cash price comes into play more than further up the tree.
 
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Lots of variables in play - the Clio is a run-out model so there's stock to clear before the 2020 car is released.

I'm really not convinced there is space for so many low to middle end manufacturers these days. The Hyundai i20 wipes the floor with cars like the Clio, C3, Corsa etc., purely on the basis that it's more reliable, has a better warranty and bridges the gap between supermini and small family car for the same or less money. I'd find it very hard to justify a C3 over a Sandero, for example - but the i20 makes more of a case for spending a little more.

It's no surprise there is such rationalisation in the marketplace - unfortunately, I think Fiat will be a victim in all this. They really are just about the 500 and Jeep brands these days.

I kind of get the Vx Corsa, as it appeals to those knuckle draggers who believe 'it's British, innit' whilst on their way to a Britain First march.
 
Lots of variables in play - the Clio is a run-out model so there's stock to clear before the 2020 car is released.

I'm really not convinced there is space for so many low to middle end manufacturers these days. The Hyundai i20 wipes the floor with cars like the Clio, C3, Corsa etc., purely on the basis that it's more reliable, has a better warranty and bridges the gap between supermini and small family car for the same or less money. I'd find it very hard to justify a C3 over a Sandero, for example - but the i20 makes more of a case for spending a little more.

It's no surprise there is such rationalisation in the marketplace - unfortunately, I think Fiat will be a victim in all this. They really are just about the 500 and Jeep brands these days.

I kind of get the Vx Corsa, as it appeals to those knuckle draggers who believe 'it's British, innit' whilst on their way to a Britain First march.

Clio is the new one so I'm afraid nope, Polo just doesn't hold it's value that well.

If the I20 wasn't dreary and available in a fetching green we'd probably have one of those..as it is the Citroen has never failed to proceed and doesn't make you look like a pensioner going for milk. If you had to give a one word review of a Sandero that word is "Cheap", the I20 "Competent", the C3 "Idiosyncratic".

Simple answer is they have different strengths and do different things well so they appeal to different people on different levels.

If Fiat just produce a generic small car it's probably not going to go that well as you say I20 is absolutely the best generic small car you can get. It needs to find its place within the market and trying to out Polo the Polo or out drive the Fiesta is probably not on the cards but we'll see where it goes.
 
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Clio is the new one so I'm afraid nope, Polo just doesn't hold it's value that well.

If the I20 wasn't dreary and available in a fetching green we'd probably have one of those..as it is the Citroen has never failed to proceed and doesn't make you look like a pensioner going for milk. If you had to give a one word review of a Sandero that word is "Cheap", the I20 "Competent", the C3 "Idiosyncratic".

Simple answer is they have different strengths and do different things well so they appeal to different people on different levels.

If Fiat just produce a generic small car it's probably not going to go that well as you say I20 is absolutely the best generic small car you can get. It needs to find its place within the market and trying to out Polo the Polo or out drive the Fiesta is probably not on the cards but we'll see where it goes.



I was quite tempted to go for an i20 over the Panda in June, test drove a few and liked them but went for the Panda. My friend with the high spec i40 had it in for warranty work and got an i20 courtesy car, we went for a few trips in it.

Initially I panicked and thought... this is a nice car, did I make the wrong choice? Looked great, good size, GREAT spec features for the money. But everything inside was so rough, flimsy and plastic. The switches looked great too but I could see them falling off in a year or two they were that bad. I felt glad that though the Panda was basic, it’s rock solid in the way the i20 isn’t and will be sure to last more gracefully.

The longevity is where I think the Dacia’s, Hyundai’s and Kia’s will start to fall down. Passed an i10, latest shape, in Belfast yesterday and it did NOT sound good. Could well be lack of care from owner, but it can’t be that old and clearly had major engine trouble coming to it..

My opinions of cars are known well on here, but I think a Polo / Fiesta / Clio will nearly 100% outlast the i20 by miles, which to me would suggest they’re “better”
 
I was quite tempted to go for an i20 over the Panda in June, test drove a few and liked them but went for the Panda. My friend with the high spec i40 had it in for warranty work and got an i20 courtesy car, we went for a few trips in it.

Initially I panicked and thought... this is a nice car, did I make the wrong choice? Looked great, good size, GREAT spec features for the money. But everything inside was so rough, flimsy and plastic. The switches looked great too but I could see them falling off in a year or two they were that bad. I felt glad that though the Panda was basic, it’s rock solid in the way the i20 isn’t and will be sure to last more gracefully.

The longevity is where I think the Dacia’s, Hyundai’s and Kia’s will start to fall down. Passed an i10, latest shape, in Belfast yesterday and it did NOT sound good. Could well be lack of care from owner, but it can’t be that old and clearly had major engine trouble coming to it..

My opinions of cars are known well on here, but I think a Polo / Fiesta / Clio will nearly 100% outlast the i20 by miles, which to me would suggest they’re “better”

Years ago there was a phrase "Friday afternoon car", used to describe any car that seemed more unreliable than its peers, assuming it had been made on a Friday afternoon when the workers were just wanting to go home. It was always nonsense of course. Most manufacturing plants either finished at midday on a Friday, or worked full shifts where the day did not matter much. Generally quality was poor and they could throw out a crap one at any time of day or night, or was that might throw out a good one occasionally?

When I first went to the Rover dealer to work, the warranty manager (Yes really, someone dealing full-time with warranty claims) showed me his records. The same customer names repeated regularly, despite changes of cars over the years. Some woould change their car annually, having complained of something every week for the year, and go on to do the same with each subsequent car. Stayed loyal to the brand though. We could clean, service and polish their 'problematic' car, sell it on, and only see it again for servicing. Suddenly reliable? No. It is the owner that makes the biggest difference to a car's reliability.

Further examples. My father was a 'car breaker'. Every car he owned needed perpetual maintenance, no matter how good it was at purchase. My brother is a bit like that. They both marvelled at how my cars seemed so reliable, even the real dogs, (a couple of really crap ones).

Think about your friends and relatives. Some will be for ever complaining about car issues, others hardly ever.

At last, I may get to the point, sorry if you're losing the will to live.
Any car will last well and give good service if treated properly. I don't mean gently, or low miles, I mean mechanical sympathy. Conversely, any 'relaible' make can be made unreliable by an unsympathetic owner, although some will tolerate this better than others.

The Dacia/Hyundai/Kia and similar, are mostly bought on budget, by owners who are not enthusiasts, just wanting transport. As such they are more likely to be unloved, and less well cared for, and in later life, even cheaper still and bought and run into the ground. They are therefore less likely to last as long or in as great numbers as the more premium brands. Given time, any of these could be made to last as well as the premiums.
 
When I first went to the Rover dealer to work, the warranty manager (Yes really, someone dealing full-time with warranty claims)

Yes, really and not just BL/Rover. When I left the shop floor to start teaching basic motor workshop skills one of the senior instructors had previously been the Warranty manager at our local, very large, Ford dealership. I heard a number of amusing/horrifying tales from him during tea breaks, one of his favourites was about the "Pumpherston Plague". Pumpherston being a small village to the west of Edinburgh where Ford, and I think others, used to store unsold vehicle stock out in the open. The plague was a paintwork defect caused by atmospheric pollution. The longer the vehicle had been stored the worse it was. Some were so bad a complete respray was needed!

Another lovely story from those days concerned a certain manufacturer's product made in Poland. We were, comparatively briefly, (they were pretty awful cars) agents. All of a sudden random vehicles started come into stock with vinyl roofs applied that had not been part of the order and didn't appear on invoices. We kept pretty quiet for the first half dozen or so and customers were very pleased with their freebies (vinyl roofs were all the thing at that time).

I seem to remember we found out what was really behind it when the boss went on a visit to the importer and asked about it. Apparently at the vast dispatching docks in Poland there were very few "Bothies" for the men to make tea and take a break. Breaks themselves were quite short so to get to the Bothy some of the men were running over the car roofs to maximize the time they could spend in the nice warm bothy! paintwork damage was significant but, due to the "Tank" like construction of the vehicles (they drove like tanks too) there was remarkably little panel damage so it was easier, and cheaper, to just stick a vinyl roof finish on.

Personally I'm a little sceptical about that story but it persists to this day so who knows?
 
Years ago there was a phrase "Friday afternoon car", used to describe any car that seemed more unreliable than its peers, assuming it had been made on a Friday afternoon when the workers were just wanting to go home. It was always nonsense of course. Most manufacturing plants either finished at midday on a Friday, or worked full shifts where the day did not matter much. Generally quality was poor and they could throw out a crap one at any time of day or night, or was that might throw out a good one occasionally?

When I first went to the Rover dealer to work, the warranty manager (Yes really, someone dealing full-time with warranty claims) showed me his records. The same customer names repeated regularly, despite changes of cars over the years. Some woould change their car annually, having complained of something every week for the year, and go on to do the same with each subsequent car. Stayed loyal to the brand though. We could clean, service and polish their 'problematic' car, sell it on, and only see it again for servicing. Suddenly reliable? No. It is the owner that makes the biggest difference to a car's reliability.

Further examples. My father was a 'car breaker'. Every car he owned needed perpetual maintenance, no matter how good it was at purchase. My brother is a bit like that. They both marvelled at how my cars seemed so reliable, even the real dogs, (a couple of really crap ones).

Think about your friends and relatives. Some will be for ever complaining about car issues, others hardly ever.

At last, I may get to the point, sorry if you're losing the will to live.
Any car will last well and give good service if treated properly. I don't mean gently, or low miles, I mean mechanical sympathy. Conversely, any 'relaible' make can be made unreliable by an unsympathetic owner, although some will tolerate this better than others.

The Dacia/Hyundai/Kia and similar, are mostly bought on budget, by owners who are not enthusiasts, just wanting transport. As such they are more likely to be unloved, and less well cared for, and in later life, even cheaper still and bought and run into the ground. They are therefore less likely to last as long or in as great numbers as the more premium brands. Given time, any of these could be made to last as well as the premiums.



All very good points too!! And never worry about the lengths of your posts, always learn something about cars from them. In this case, perspective!

I suppose before the computer systems we take for granted now an entire person to track warranty at each dealership and all the paperwork would have had their work cut out for them!
 
Most dealerships saw warranty as a necessary evil, but really they are your best customer. If you do the diagnosis right, and claim properly, it gets paid promptly, unlike many account customers. One major point though, replacing parts instead of diagnosis gets expensive, as all are returned and tested. Generally the last part replaced is the one paid for, a good thought when dealing with garages now when lots of work is done before any cure is found.
 
Just had a thought, back on this thread.

With Fiat and Peugeot merging, will we see an improvement in customer service? Anyone with actual experience of PSA customer service? Is it better than Fiat's general indifference?

Oddly enough yes, when we used a joint Fiat/Citroen dealer it was...exactly like having a Fiat.

Found a reasonable dealer elsewhere when we got the C3. They were initially better highlights would be them forgetting to stamp the service book leading to a 40 mile round trip..running after me down the car park as they'd forgotten to return our wheel key was amusing though. Them damaging the paint round the rear light performing a recall wasn't so funny though. Also them spending all day to update the Smeg software and not managing it was not great either..

We're on the 3rd different dealer now....we'll see they haven't done anything daft or damaged the car so far so winning.

In other words..probably business as usual.

Best way to sum the service up, if we were keeping the C3 it would be at an independent garage year 4, the Mazda is still in the dealer network year 8 because they actually do a good job and give a healthy discount on older cars.
 
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Desira group in Norfolk are generally OK and cover Fiat, Pug, Citroën. Bizarrely have had little reason to use them though, given that I drive a Fiat ;)
A £29 Mot with wash and vacuum included was is a breeze for the Qubo, and they were happy to broker the Mot for the van via a commercial garage for £59 until I cut out the middle man and went directly, for the same price.
 
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