Technical Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Bernievarian · Oct 27, 2019

judderbar said:
1. The tensioner is not tensioned.
2. Those DIY timing marks will only line up once for many rotations of the engine - assuming they were used to time the engine last time.

Hi Everson,

1. TRUE, markd MUST be aligned to get the proper spring load and tensionning force.
2. FALSE: the marks will align every second rotation as there is a 1:2 ratio between crankshaft and camshaft pulleys.

In your video, it seems that the CAMshaft is just 1/2 turn away of matching the marks, make another full turn of the CRANKshaft and the marks will fit, or maybe show one or a few tooth shift (due to the sloppy belt).

- bring engine as close to marks as possible
- install CAMtool, MUST be fully in (flushing), might need to slightly rotate the engine
- loose tensioner (it is already), loose CAMshaft pulley bolt and remove belt
- hand rotate the CRANKshaft so you can install its locking tool (piston rods at same level)
- install new belt, tighten the tensioner, tighten the CAMshaft pulley bolt, remove locking tools, hand rotate the engine for 2 turns, re-install
BOTH locking tools: they MUST fit perfectly, if not adjust the engine position so the CAMshaft tool fits 100%, then loosen its pulley bolt and
adjust the engine so the CRANKshaft tool fits 100%, tighten CAMshaft bolt, remove tools and redo the 2 turns check.

This is the ONLY way you'd be certain of your engine timing ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

everson38 said:
Teahthats what i tought.good job i decide to get in here and have a look. currently at fitting a new belt stage. further updates to come

Reading through this thread i am not sure you know how to tension the belt so it is correctly tensioned on the water pump side opposite to the side the tensioner is on?

The usual way if you are using the tools is to slacken the cam sprocket bolt using a cam sprocket holding tool while you apply that 120nm on the bolt. The bolt gets retightened after the tensioner is set.

It is possible to correctly tension the belt without undoing that bolt but you will have to remove the crank pulley tool and rotate the crank pulley about two belt notches anticlockwise, fit the belt and then turn the crank pulley clockwise to tension the belt on the water pump side

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

Bernievarian said:
Hi Everson,

1. TRUE, markd MUST be aligned to get the proper srping load
2. FALSE: the marks will align avery second rotation as there is a 1:2 ration between crankshaft and camshaft pulleys

In your video, it seems that the CAMshaft is just 1/2 turn of matching the marks, make another full turn of the CRANKshaft and the marks will fit, or maybe show one or a few tooth shift (due to the sloppy belt).

- bring engine as close to marks as possible
- install CAMtool, MUST be fully in (flushing), might need to slightly rotate the engine
- loose tensioner (it is already), loose CAMshaft pulley bolt and remove belt
- hand rotate the CRANKshaft so you can install its locking tool (piston rods at same level)
- install new belt, tighten the tensioner, tighten the CAMshaft pulley bolt, remove locking tools, hand rotate the engine for 2 turns, re-install BOTH locking tools: they MUST fit perfectly, if not adjust the engine position so the CAMshaft tool fits 100%, then loosen its pulley bolt and adjust the engine so the CRANKshaft tool fits 100%, tighten CAMshaft bolt, remove tools and redo the 2 turns check.

This is the ONLY way you'd be certain of your engine timing ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Have you ever timed a 16v engine using those white marks? There are 4 marks. Two marks on the sprockets and two marks on the belt. Every time I have done that job the marks travel a few notches for every two revolutions.

It could be my technique...........

Every time i have done it the marks slowly move around the pulley. It could be because you mark the belt and each sprocket and do so at a convenient spot and the lengths between the marks are not equal but for whatever reason those marks move and it can be exhausting to get back to the marks again

Bernievarian · Oct 27, 2019

It does NOT make sense to mark the pulleys and the belt: those are two moving parts with different tooth numbers, so the marks will continuously shift and align every X turn only.

BTW, this is done by purpose to evenly spread the wear over the entire belt/pulleys; same technique is used with gears (whose ratios are NEVER like 17:34 but might be 17:35 or 16:33.

Back to timing the distribution, it is ok to mark the pulleys AND the engine, but the best is still to use the locating and locking tools since you'll never know how the engine timing was set prior your intervention ...

Any other method is BS !

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

perhaps we are talking about different things?

You can replace the belt on a timed working engine without special tools by marking the old belt and sprockets and copying the marks to the new belt

everson38 · Oct 27, 2019

Bernievarian said:
Hi Everson,

1. TRUE, markd MUST be aligned to get the proper spring load and tensionning force.
2. FALSE: the marks will align every second rotation as there is a 1:2 ratio between crankshaft and camshaft pulleys.

In your video, it seems that the CAMshaft is just 1/2 turn away of matching the marks, make another full turn of the CRANKshaft and the marks will fit, or maybe show one or a few tooth shift (due to the sloppy belt).

- bring engine as close to marks as possible
- install CAMtool, MUST be fully in (flushing), might need to slightly rotate the engine
- loose tensioner (it is already), loose CAMshaft pulley bolt and remove belt
- hand rotate the CRANKshaft so you can install its locking tool (piston rods at same level)
- install new belt, tighten the tensioner, tighten the CAMshaft pulley bolt, remove locking tools, hand rotate the engine for 2 turns, re-install
BOTH locking tools: they MUST fit perfectly, if not adjust the engine position so the CAMshaft tool fits 100%, then loosen its pulley bolt and
adjust the engine so the CRANKshaft tool fits 100%, tighten CAMshaft bolt, remove tools and redo the 2 turns check.

This is the ONLY way you'd be certain of your engine timing ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Hey Berne.

Thanks for this. Just for some clarification the white marks, at the top by the cam sprocket which are at 12oclock and 6 clock, i believe was put there via other garage. Sitting in this state the cam timing tool cut out is visible in the window at back of the engine, (i cant really remember now, but im pretty sure i did try to align those white marks on the CAM sprocket and when I did the timing tool cut out was NOT visible to put locking tool in if i align them. But again isnt this all irrelevant as you need to loosen the CAM sprocket anyway to fit new belt on.

I understand your concern about the cam locking tool, but honestly i could not get it in any further. What i did do, was take out the tool and sloted a small drill bit, so it rested into the cut out and then had the other end sticking out of the window in the engine. I then marked it with a marker where it comes out of the engine and then measured the height against the cam locking tool and it was the same height, meaning that it having 1-2 threads on show that do not fully screw in, is the tool fully seated, if you get what I mean?

everson38 · Oct 27, 2019

judderbar said:
Reading through this thread i am not sure you know how to tension the belt so it is correctly tensioned on the water pump side opposite to the side the tensioner is on?

The usual way if you are using the tools is to slacken the cam sprocket bolt using a cam sprocket holding tool while you apply that 120nm on the bolt. The bolt gets retightened after the tensioner is set.

It is possible to correctly tension the belt without undoing that bolt but you will have to remove the crank pulley tool and rotate the crank pulley about two belt notches anticlockwise, fit the belt and then turn the crank pulley clockwise to tension the belt on the water pump side

Hey, yes thats what i believe I did , this is what i did:

1) Removed old belt and tensioner

2) Then slackend the Cam sprocket bolt

3) Fitted new belt and tensioner

4) Tensioned the new tensioner till its maximum( i believe this beds new belt in)

5) Torqued down CAM sprocket bolt

6) Rotated engine two revolutions and then readjusted the tensioner to the correct tensioner i.e when the grooves align.

I did notice that my tensioner moves during rotation when it is set at correct tension is this norm? See video: [ame]https://youtu.be/I3eViTv26Ro[/ame]

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

everson38 said:
Hey, yes thats what i believe I did , this is what i did:

1) Removed old belt and tensioner

2) Then slackend the Cam sprocket bolt

3) Fitted new belt and tensioner

4) Tensioned the new tensioner till its maximum( i believe this beds new belt in)

5) Torqued down CAM sprocket bolt

6) Rotated engine two revolutions and then readjusted the tensioner to the correct tensioner i.e when the grooves align.

I did notice that my tensioner moves during rotation when it is set at correct tension is this norm? See video: https://youtu.be/I3eViTv26Ro

yes it is normal that it moves when you hand crank it.

I believe the cam bolt should only be tightened when the tension is normal. Either way you should recheck the timing is acceptably good by refitting the tools after you have rotated the engine to be sure all is well.

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

everson38 said:
Hey Berne.

Thanks for this. Just for some clarification the white marks, at the top by the cam sprocket which are at 12oclock and 6 clock, i believe was put there via other garage. Sitting in this state the cam timing tool cut out is visible in the window at back of the engine, (i cant really remember now, but im pretty sure i did try to align those white marks on the CAM sprocket and when I did the timing tool cut out was NOT visible to put locking tool in if i align them. But again isnt this all irrelevant as you need to loosen the CAM sprocket anyway to fit new belt on.

I understand your concern about the cam locking tool, but honestly i could not get it in any further. What i did do, was take out the tool and sloted a small drill bit, so it rested into the cut out and then had the other end sticking out of the window in the engine. I then marked it with a marker where it comes out of the engine and then measured the height against the cam locking tool and it was the same height, meaning that it having 1-2 threads on show that do not fully screw in, is the tool fully seated, if you get what I mean?

I was also thinking that the tools should not look like that, however I just tried my two different sets on my car. Only one of the sets screws in fully. The one with springs.

everson38 · Oct 27, 2019

judderbar said:
yes it is normal that it moves when you hand crank it.

I believe the cam bolt should only be tightened when the tension is normal. Either way you should recheck the timing is acceptably good by refitting the tools after you have rotated the engine to be sure all is well.

Hey Judder,

I cannot comment, as I am merely following the tjet elearn steps: http://4cardata.info/elearn/199/2/199000000/199000005/199000001/199000456 if you wouldn't mind giving it a quick glance over to ensure I haven't read that part of thesteps incorrectly.

In addition I noticed, that as i was doing my revolutions my timing belt was sitting closer to the edge of the cam pulley , compared to when i first put it on in place, any ideas what could be causing the moving? The tensioner retaining nut is on tight and the tension is correct?

everson38 · Oct 27, 2019

judderbar said:
I was also thinking that the tools should not look like that. I have two different sets of cam tools. One set has springs so you can find the position and they will click fully into place as you move the crank pulley. For sure it is possible for the tools to be only partially slotted in because the angle of the cams is not correct.

Ok so you agree with Berne, that my cam tool should not be sticking out? I do not have the cam tool with the spring on it. Mine you push in until it slots into the cut out and they you screw the black thread down to lock it in place, which mine does do but 1-2 threads remain on show before u cannot tighten it anymore.??? I'm not sure if maybe they are slightly different for the 1.4 16v and the 1.4 16v TJET???

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

everson38 said:
Ok so you agree with Berne, that my cam tool should not be sticking out? I do not have the cam tool with the spring on it. Mine you push in until it slots into the cut out and they you screw the black thread down to lock it in place, which mine does do but 1-2 threads remain on show before u cannot tighten it anymore.??? I'm not sure if maybe they are slightly different for the 1.4 16v and the 1.4 16v TJET???

My apologies. I just tried my two different makes of tool. Only the one with springs will screw in fully. So no worries!

https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/476527-timing-belt-too-tight-too-loose-5.html?p=4503381

everson38 · Oct 27, 2019

judderbar said:
My apologies. I just tried my two different makes of tool. Only the one with springs will screw in fully. So no worries!

https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/476527-timing-belt-too-tight-too-loose-5.html?p=4503381

Thanks for this Judd. How did you check this? Did you actually go out and rotate your cams and try screw it in? You wouldn't have a picture of how your other tool that doesn't fully screw in sits would you?

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

everson38 said:
Hey Judder,

I cannot comment, as I am merely following the tjet elearn steps: http://4cardata.info/elearn/199/2/199000000/199000005/199000001/199000456 if you wouldn't mind giving it a quick glance over to ensure I haven't read that part of thesteps incorrectly.

In addition I noticed, that as i was doing my revolutions my timing belt was sitting closer to the edge of the cam pulley , compared to when i first put it on in place, any ideas what could be causing the moving? The tensioner retaining nut is on tight and the tension is correct?

The belt moving to a new position is normal and one of the reasons you do the two revolutions so it finds its natural position.

I read the elearning page.

You have followed that text correctly. However I was confused by the drawing of the supposedly fully tensioned tensioner as I had earlier told you your tensioner was not tensioned (when in that drawn position). Since I have an old tensioner it does seem their drawing is wrong.

Or maybe i am just having a senile moment again??

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

everson38 said:
Thanks for this Judd. How did you check this? Did you actually go out and rotate your cams and try screw it in? You wouldn't have a picture of how your other tool that doesn't fully screw in sits would you?

I dont have a picture but it was about at least one eighth of an inch not fully screwed in.

I jacked up the car and put a large socket on the hub nut. fitted the sprung tool and rotated the wheel until it clicked into place and then fitted the other one.

By the way it has not been mentioned in this thread but elearning covers it and I said you had correctly followed that text. But in fact i am not sure.

The crank shaft tools have to be fitted with number one on the down stroke.

everson38 · Oct 27, 2019

judderbar said:
The belt moving to a new position is normal and one of the reasons you do the two revolutions so it finds its natural position.

I read the elearning page.

You have followed that text correctly. However I was confused by the drawing of the supposedly fully tensioned tensioner as I had earlier told you your tensioner was not tensioned (when in that drawn position). Since I have an old tensioner it does seem their drawing is wrong.

Or maybe i am just having a senile moment again??

Hey Jud.

Yeah I fully agree. That picture I sent showing my tensioner, I agree with you that seems to be un-tensioned hence why I am.changing it, as I believe the garage that originally did my timing belt put it on this way and.must.of thought it was a self tensioning unit. The drawing seems to show it as if you put it on un-tensioned. which I agree I thought was wrong. I assumed it meant they wanted you to fully tension it to the other side and then do two rotations? And then 'Re adjust it to match the grooves align and rotate it arpu d twice again.

everson38 · Oct 27, 2019

judderbar said:
I dont have a picture but it was about at least one eighth of an inch not fully screwed in.

I jacked up the car and put a large socket on the hub nut. fitted the sprung tool and rotated the wheel until it clicked into place and then fitted the other one.

By the way it has not been mentioned in this thread but elearning covers it and I said you had correctly followed that text. But in fact i am not sure.

The crank shaft tools have to be fitted with number one on the down stroke.

Hey Jud.

I appreciate you going out and checking that for me. Above and beyond there.

You just mentioned:
"By the way it has not been mentioned in this thread but elearning covers it and I said you had correctly followed that text. But in fact i am not sure.

The crank shaft tools have to be fitted with number one on the down stroke."

I don't believe that is correct. I have just checked elearn for the 1.4 16v and it mentions about them being halfway up the cylinder aka "in phase" (see pic) and the if you look at that link to the TJET elearn it mentions the same thing also.

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

everson38 said:
Hey Jud.

I appreciate you going out and checking that for me. Above and beyond there.

You just mentioned:
"By the way it has not been mentioned in this thread but elearning covers it and I said you had correctly followed that text. But in fact i am not sure.

The crank shaft tools have to be fitted with number one on the down stroke."

I don't believe that is correct. I have just checked elearn for the 1.4 16v and it mentions about them being halfway up the cylinder aka "in phase" (see pic) and the if you look at that link to the TJET elearn it mentions the same thing also.View attachment 204096

They are half way down rather than half way up!

Bernievarian · Oct 27, 2019

There will be 4 times on a full cycle (720° or 2 turns) where every piston will be at mid-stroke: out of them, 2 times in "down stroke": once @ expansion and the other @ intake and finally only ONE time when the cam locking tool can be fitted.
THAT IS THE ONLY POSITION WHERE THE ENGINE IS 100% SURE AT ITS "TIMING" POSITION !!
Please stop bull****ting people with white marks here or there, on belt or pulley, or belt and block !! Of course the job can be done as you like, but if you rely on existing setup you will NEVER be sure you did it right ...

This was my last comment on this thread... Kind regards to all, Bernard.

judderbar · Oct 27, 2019

Bernievarian said:
There will be 4 times on a full cycle (720° or 2 turns) where every piston will be at mid-stroke: out of them, 2 times in "down stroke": once @ expansion and the other @ intake and finally only ONE time when the cam locking tool can be fitted.
THAT IS THE ONLY POSITION WHERE THE ENGINE IS 100% SURE AT ITS "TIMING" POSITION !!
Please stop bull****ting people with white marks here or there, on belt or pulley, or belt and block !! Of course the job can be done as you like, but if you rely on existing setup you will NEVER be sure you did it right ...

This was my last comment on this thread... Kind regards to all, Bernard.

The elearning instructions say to lock the cams, remove the belt and position the 1 and 2 pistons half way up the cylinders with number one on the descending stroke.

Technical Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

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