Ok folks, just for starters, I've already posted quite a bit about this in the Panda (2003 to 2012) section. It got there as the thread is about "what shares the drive with your Panda" - well, in my case its a Punto and an Ibiza. It just so happens that we are having clutch problems with the Punto (2012 1.4 8 valve 199 model) so, as far as the clutch goes, it's just like a Grand Punto. So I thought, as this thread consistently attracts a high number of viewers, I'd post here in the hope that someone who is very familiar with Puntos might be able to help
To briefly sum up the problem here's a quick resume of progress to date. My oldest boy - whose car it is - tells me the clutch feels "funny" and leaves the car with me whilst he and his family go off on their summer hols. Thanks son! As soon as I drive it it's very apparent there is a problem as the clutch pedal has very long travel with all the "action" happening within about an inch of the floor.
Got to be air in the system I hear you all shout in unison. Well yes, I thought so too! Checked out the slave and master cylinders for leaks and obvious defects, all looked ok. Bled more than 1/2 a litre of fluid through it and although there was a very small amount of "fizz" came through with the first stroke or two the rest was all clear fluid. This produced no improvement in the pedal.
Next I went back and very carefully rechecked all the hydraulics but could find absolutely no clues, it all looked A1. Still behaving like a text book case of air in the system though. So, it really has to be something going on internally with the master cylinder, doesn't it? Oh well, I bought a good quality new master cylinder and tried to fit it. I had the bolts and connections all free within about half an hour and bloody lacerations on the back of my left hand! So the cylinder was all free but I couldn't see how to get it out. There's bits of the mounting bracket in the way! Mr Haynes didn't warn about any of this! About two hours later I had got no further so contacted my local Fiat Indy (Harrisons) who told me they were very difficult to do (actually that language has been sanitized) and that other bits and pieces have to come out for access. Would I like them to do it for me? Well, at 73 years old, with my arthritis bothering me considerably, to say nothing of the blood dripping from my left hand, I said YES, thank you, put it all back together and drove it down to them. Took the lead mechanic just under 4 hours! Turns out the pedal cluster has to be partially removed. So, master cylinder replaced - at no small cost - but, darn it, no change in clutch action! In fact it feels no different at all!
I think, although I had diagnosed that a new master cylinder was needed that I was probably wrong, the guys though, were in agreement and slightly embarrassed when that didn't fix it. We put our heads together and decided that the problem was most likely the clutch itself. Maybe worn diaphragm fingers/release bearing? cracked diaphragm? (although there were no "funny" noises) who could say but we all agreed that the 'box should come out for a look see. Unfortunately this sort of heavy lifting is now just beyond me so I left them to it. With it all on the floor it could be seen that there were signs of a previous owner having been a "clutch pedal rider" as the ends of the diaphragm release arms were deeply grooved - but none were broken off - The driven plate was also pretty near the end of it's life but at the end of the day nothing was found that might point to the problem. A new Valeo clutch was fitted and the whole thing built back up again. I was not surprised to find that, although the new clutch now gave a very light pedal - as is often the case with a new cover assembly - the action was still all in that last inch before the pedal hit the floor. The garage power bled the system for me but still absolutely no change and no air found in the hydraulics!
So, another big bill which my boy won't be expecting after his holiday (they're back on Saturday) I think I'll have to "sub" him for some time. We've now replaced everything but the slave cylinder, which is not leaking and visually looks fine, so where to now? by the way it occurred to me to visually check the operation of the release arm/slave cylinder compared to our 2010 Panda 1.2 8 valve which is an almost identical set up and it is immediately obvious that the Punto's release arm does not move anything like as far as the Panda's. Got to be a hydraulic problem hasn't it? Anyway the garage is convinced the problem now lies with the slave cylinder - it is the only component we haven't changed after all! They are obtaining one and were going to fit it today but haven't rung so I'm hoping it'll be tomorrow.
My big problem is that the old slave looks absolutely fine and shows no sign of leaking at all. In my experience all that usually happens with slaves is they either work or leak? So late yesterday and again today I've been examining everything in detail and I just can't figure it out - except - If you follow the pipe from the master cylinder it goes behind the engine and into this "thingy"
Which sits just behind the ABS unit behind the battery
Another pipe comes out of it and goes underneath the battery to a flex hose (like a brake flex hose) which plugs into the back end of the slave cylinder near where the bleed is. My panda has a connector half way between the master and slave but it's just a connector. This thing looks like it could contain some sort of "device" maybe a diaphragm of some sort or? who knows? If the new slave doesn't sort it I'm going to try clamping off the flex hose - just as you would a brake flex when changing a cylinder or caliper - and see if the pedal is still poor. If it is, it's got to be this "thingy" hasn't it? Anyone know what's inside it? surely it's too big and complicated looking to just be a pipe connector like the Panda? I'm very suspicious of it.
So, any suggestions anyone? please.
Regards
Jock
To briefly sum up the problem here's a quick resume of progress to date. My oldest boy - whose car it is - tells me the clutch feels "funny" and leaves the car with me whilst he and his family go off on their summer hols. Thanks son! As soon as I drive it it's very apparent there is a problem as the clutch pedal has very long travel with all the "action" happening within about an inch of the floor.
Got to be air in the system I hear you all shout in unison. Well yes, I thought so too! Checked out the slave and master cylinders for leaks and obvious defects, all looked ok. Bled more than 1/2 a litre of fluid through it and although there was a very small amount of "fizz" came through with the first stroke or two the rest was all clear fluid. This produced no improvement in the pedal.
Next I went back and very carefully rechecked all the hydraulics but could find absolutely no clues, it all looked A1. Still behaving like a text book case of air in the system though. So, it really has to be something going on internally with the master cylinder, doesn't it? Oh well, I bought a good quality new master cylinder and tried to fit it. I had the bolts and connections all free within about half an hour and bloody lacerations on the back of my left hand! So the cylinder was all free but I couldn't see how to get it out. There's bits of the mounting bracket in the way! Mr Haynes didn't warn about any of this! About two hours later I had got no further so contacted my local Fiat Indy (Harrisons) who told me they were very difficult to do (actually that language has been sanitized) and that other bits and pieces have to come out for access. Would I like them to do it for me? Well, at 73 years old, with my arthritis bothering me considerably, to say nothing of the blood dripping from my left hand, I said YES, thank you, put it all back together and drove it down to them. Took the lead mechanic just under 4 hours! Turns out the pedal cluster has to be partially removed. So, master cylinder replaced - at no small cost - but, darn it, no change in clutch action! In fact it feels no different at all!
I think, although I had diagnosed that a new master cylinder was needed that I was probably wrong, the guys though, were in agreement and slightly embarrassed when that didn't fix it. We put our heads together and decided that the problem was most likely the clutch itself. Maybe worn diaphragm fingers/release bearing? cracked diaphragm? (although there were no "funny" noises) who could say but we all agreed that the 'box should come out for a look see. Unfortunately this sort of heavy lifting is now just beyond me so I left them to it. With it all on the floor it could be seen that there were signs of a previous owner having been a "clutch pedal rider" as the ends of the diaphragm release arms were deeply grooved - but none were broken off - The driven plate was also pretty near the end of it's life but at the end of the day nothing was found that might point to the problem. A new Valeo clutch was fitted and the whole thing built back up again. I was not surprised to find that, although the new clutch now gave a very light pedal - as is often the case with a new cover assembly - the action was still all in that last inch before the pedal hit the floor. The garage power bled the system for me but still absolutely no change and no air found in the hydraulics!
So, another big bill which my boy won't be expecting after his holiday (they're back on Saturday) I think I'll have to "sub" him for some time. We've now replaced everything but the slave cylinder, which is not leaking and visually looks fine, so where to now? by the way it occurred to me to visually check the operation of the release arm/slave cylinder compared to our 2010 Panda 1.2 8 valve which is an almost identical set up and it is immediately obvious that the Punto's release arm does not move anything like as far as the Panda's. Got to be a hydraulic problem hasn't it? Anyway the garage is convinced the problem now lies with the slave cylinder - it is the only component we haven't changed after all! They are obtaining one and were going to fit it today but haven't rung so I'm hoping it'll be tomorrow.
My big problem is that the old slave looks absolutely fine and shows no sign of leaking at all. In my experience all that usually happens with slaves is they either work or leak? So late yesterday and again today I've been examining everything in detail and I just can't figure it out - except - If you follow the pipe from the master cylinder it goes behind the engine and into this "thingy"
Which sits just behind the ABS unit behind the battery
Another pipe comes out of it and goes underneath the battery to a flex hose (like a brake flex hose) which plugs into the back end of the slave cylinder near where the bleed is. My panda has a connector half way between the master and slave but it's just a connector. This thing looks like it could contain some sort of "device" maybe a diaphragm of some sort or? who knows? If the new slave doesn't sort it I'm going to try clamping off the flex hose - just as you would a brake flex when changing a cylinder or caliper - and see if the pedal is still poor. If it is, it's got to be this "thingy" hasn't it? Anyone know what's inside it? surely it's too big and complicated looking to just be a pipe connector like the Panda? I'm very suspicious of it.
So, any suggestions anyone? please.
Regards
Jock
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