General Why Fiat Panda?

[rmjbn1]

I'd be interested to know, what alternatives did anyone consider before choosing a Panda? I wanted a small, cheap to run car, and my options were:
1. Suzuki Swift, because it's also light with good handling. It's not as flexible a design as the Panda. But then Japanese electrics might be more reliable than Italian... possibly...
2. Mazda2 (the previous 'Demio' version), more spacious than a Panda, and also handles well, but weighs about 50% more, and would also cost about 50% more to run. The Mazdas we've had have been reliable for mechanics and electrics, but seem to rust quite quickly in the sills & wheelarches.

I briefly considered a Toyota Yaris because they're light, reliable & apparently OK to drive, but don't have the charm or flexibility of the Panda.

The only car I think might tempt me away from my Panda in the future would be the Ecoboost Fiesta, because I really like the idea of that engine, and reports indicate they have the best handling for a 'supermini' sized car. But I still think the pounds/smiles ratio of the Panda is hard to beat Any thoughts?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The only car I think might tempt me away from my Panda in the future would be the Ecoboost Fiesta, because I really like the idea of that engine, and reports indicate they have the best handling for a 'supermini' sized car. But I still think the pounds/smiles ratio of the Panda is hard to beat Any thoughts?

Don't know much about them but isn't the Ecoboost nicknamed the Ecoburst? I think there have been quite a few reported problems with them?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi Jock, someone near me had a mean looking Mini van in powder blue with a black roof, straight through exhaust & Wolfrace wheels, I was very envious. I used to toy with the idea of a breathed-on A35 van when they were cheaply available (I wonder what happened to the ex-James Hunt one...), but I've never considered a hot Acadiane before! Have you seen such a thing?

Always liked a mini van with "attitude". At college and permanently skint, we (me and 2 friends) built a mini van. We put thick washers between the cones and knuckle joints to raise the suspension slightly and give it "attitude" (everyone else was sawing the ends off the cones to lower them) Reverse cooper "S" rims (the ones with the holes in them) and a plain grey paint job completed the "look". Over a number of months, as time allowed we fitted a one and a half inch SU and Long Centre Branch exhaust manifold with straight pipe back to a "Cherry Bomb" type silencer. It really looked and sounded mean but only went slightly faster than the standard van. We loved it deeply!

Regarding the Acadiane, It's only ever going to be a dream but I envisage a tubular spaceframe chassis. Independent Jag rear suspension. Largest rear tyres, but not low profile, I can economically find with skinnys on the front. Daimler 2.5 litre V8 with a "jimmy" type blower on top sticking up through the bonnet and coupled to an auto box. (probably an old school Borg Warner 'cos I did a course on them) The body will have a slight rake front to rear but not in any way a "high boy" I want it quite low to the road.

Slightly different, but in the same vein, if you get into you tube and search Ferrari engined 2CV you'll see someone else's take on it. Not really what I would like as it's not a Hot Rod. It looks like these guys stripped a Ferrari back to the floor pan and dropped a 2CV van body on it. But all done very nicely from the engineering point of view.

 

[rmjbn1]

Haha, thanks for the tip, that F355 Fourgonette is hilarious! Sounds and looks the business too, if perhaps the air intakes could do with some refinement

I did wonder if you were considering bolting an Acadiane body and front wheels to an SP250! It sounds rather more detailed than that, a nice dream to have! Do you have any contacts still at Firestone who could sort you out with appropriate rubber?

Sounds like you've had an enertaining back-catalogue of motors, your grey mini van makes me think of the star '55 Chevy in Two-Lane Blacktop!

One event I'd love to make would be the Vintage Hot Rod Association's races on Pendine Sands, have you ever been? I'd also love to have a suitable car for the event, but couldn't possibly justify it

 

[DaveMcT]

How about Abarth 565 oily bits into a Panda shell? That should surprise the boy racers.

How about one of these? Bike engine power and I'm sure they'll have a 2 seat version. You'll need some fancy welding kit but oxy/fuel gas brazing is uber strong.

https://theedgeproducts.com/collections/the-barracuda

http://badlandbuggy.com/

Goggle will no doubt find dozens Some might even be road legal if you know what's needed for that.

 

[perelaar]

I'd be interested to know, what alternatives did anyone consider before choosing a Panda?...

For my specific (offroad capability, small size, OK to drive on-road) requirements, not a lot of competition to the Panda 4x4 and Cross.
Suzuki Jimny is a right bastard to drive on the road (and I've tried!); new one is overpriced and has 1 year waiting time. Old 4x4 was no option, what with emission regulations, road taxes, fuel use and maintenance required.
Had a 1997 Nissan Terrano2 before the Panda, but that cost more in maintenance and fuel than the actual price of the car - every year.

 

[DaveMcT]

One of my neighbours has a Terrano. What a rust bucket but it keeps going.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Haha, thanks for the tip, that F355 Fourgonette is hilarious! Sounds and looks the business too, if perhaps the air intakes could do with some refinement

I did wonder if you were considering bolting an Acadiane body and front wheels to an SP250! It sounds rather more detailed than that, a nice dream to have! Do you have any contacts still at Firestone who could sort you out with appropriate rubber?

Sounds like you've had an enertaining back-catalogue of motors, your grey mini van makes me think of the star '55 Chevy in Two-Lane Blacktop!

One event I'd love to make would be the Vintage Hot Rod Association's races on Pendine Sands, have you ever been? I'd also love to have a suitable car for the event, but couldn't possibly justify it

Yes the air intakes are pretty ugly compared to the rest of the job - wouldn't stop me having it in a gift though! Your other suggestion would be sacrilege! Any Dart or SP250 deserves to be treasured!

Unfortunately Firestone's European Racing division was completely dissolved. We pretty much came in one day to find brown envelopes on our desks and a month to tie everything up! Personnel were quite good though, we all got interviews and they tried their best to find places for us but nothing like the racing experience. Some of the engineering staff joined the teams they worked with. Mike Wilds went on to be a very successful race driver. I think at least one went to Firestone Europa in Luxembourg - It was one of the options open to me but didn't appeal as it was much more office based and I've always been an outside, workshop, sort of bloke. Instead I joined Firestone's Tyre and Auto operation (almost ashamed to say, an early version of Kwik Fit). It only took me a year or so to realize it wasn't for me and, with an offer of a job handling the car sales for a small DAF car garage back up in Edinburgh, - So much for the workshop outside life eh? -We returned to Scotland and lost contact with many of the people, except special friends, we had known whilst down south. Did you see the recently aired documentary featuring the Williams team? - always admired Frank Williams and even more so now I've seen this. Boy, and I think I've had a few problems in my life! - There is a cracking full frontal shot, on screen for quite a few seconds, of our head compounder. One of the main men responsible for the success of our product. There are also various recognizable arms and legs which appear just in shot! Another documentary well worth watching is the "McLaren" one all about the life of Bruce McLaren. There is one bit actually had me silently weeping.

Two Lane Blacktop!!! Got the DVD (keep looking for it on Blu ray with the enhanced audio that brings so I can really blow the doors off the house with my AV amp!) I love the bit, just after they uncap the headers, where it pops, farts and missfires it's way off the verge up onto the start line on the road after picking a race with that car in town. Damn it, wish I could remember the other car? Was it the bright red Rod? I also love Vanishing point, Bullit, Michael Caine's Italian Job - got them all on DVD! Sad old fart that I am! Strangely never had a copy of American Graffiti, must rectify that!

Pendine Sands another shrine! never been there unfortunately and quite a long way for me to go - but - Vintage Hot Rods - oooooooow! I spent a lot of time with my two friends (of Mini fame) at Santa Pod in the '60's, haven't been back since - maybe I should? Spent quite a lot of time at Budds Creek when my daughter lived in Southern Maryland though - got very sunburned sitting on the bleachers but couldn't give it up!

A few Budds creek images:























The guy with the strange looking "fire wand" is actually the strip owner and he's burning off some of the built up lumpy bits of tyre rubber. The strip was under constant attention to try to give the best possible surface all day.

Oh, and the bikes! absolutely mental!

 

[DaveMcT]

It's not too late http://www.vhra.co.uk/VHRA/Pendine_Sands.html

 

[rmjbn1]

Awesome shots from Budds Creek, Jock. Pendine may seem a bit tame in comparison, but still looks great fun. Wish I could go this year, but it always seems to clash with something for me. I might just disown all family & friends if I need to, to make it next year I try to get to a new event every so often, and last year was my first Le Mans Classic, a wonderful meeting.

I sometimes feel TV's are getting stupidly huge, but then I saw The Italian Job on a big screen with a proper sound system for the first time - a different film to the one I remember watching on a 13" Trinitron with one tinny speaker! A Lamborghini V12 in the alps deserves the sound cranked up to 11

I'd not heard of the McLaren film, so will track it down. I admire Bruce McLaren for what he acheived with his team so quickly at a young age against the established makes with great cars in Can-Am & F1. I enjoyed the Williams documentary too - I hadn't appreciated at the time just how bad a condition Frank was in after his crash, extraordinary resilience to make the 86 British GP and back to running his team full time for the next season. Another film I enjoyed was Ferrari: Race to Immortality for the period footage and sounds, and a moving, if tragic, story.

 

[rmjbn1]

Suzuki Jimny is a right bastard to drive on the road (and I've tried!)

Interesting to hear. Am I right that you could switch from RWD to AWD? That notion quite appealed to me, but if it still handled badly in RWD mode, then no thanks. My sister was seriously considering replacing her MX5 with a Jimny when she moved to the mountains (after advice from colleagues & friends), but for those who want 4x4 from time to time, the Panda's system sounds like a good arrangement to me, without the attendant costs of permanent AWD.

 

[DaveMcT]

I used to live in a house with a long (and very rough) "drive" to the bottom of the gardens where the garages stood. My next-door neighbour used this as an excuse to have Suzuki Jimny. They always drove so annoyingly slowly I was keen to get away before they did.

One day, they gave me a lift in the Suzuki. OMG it was horrible I could now see why they drove so slowly. On the other hand, they were just as slow when they replaced it with a Skoda Yeti.

I'm sure the little Suzuki 4x4 was excellent off road but it was far from ideal on road.

 

[perelaar]

To put it in perspective: my 22 year old short wheel base Nissan Terrano2 drove a lot better on-road. And that car was using the same technology: ladder chassis, RWD but AWD to be activated (only on slippery roads, otherwise you break the diff).

The new Jimny will probably drive a little bit better on-road, but it is still underpowered (100 hp, but without turbo). Happier with my Panda, what can I say.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I love the bit, just after they uncap the headers, where it pops, farts and missfires it's way off the verge up onto the start line on the road after picking a race with that car in town. Damn it, wish I could remember the other car? Was it the bright red Rod?

Mrs J's gone to her bridge club - too "establishment" for me. So I just watched it again That rod/roadster is green! (red? how did I get red!) anyway although it looks like a model "A" That's not an "A" grill is it? I think that's a chev grill on the front? Big block 427 cu inch motor though! Boy I just loved listening to those few moments as it struggles away from the verge.

If you like engine noises I could recommend many to you but try You Tubing "Walter Mitty Mazda RX3". It was recorded at Road Atlanta. (I mentioned this in a post a while back so apologies if you've already viewed it) A small team of these turned up in the European Touring Car Championship for a season and then disappeared again. They were surprisingly fast, as you can see from the video, but by far the most noisy things on the circuit at that time. A BMW 3.0 CSI could be barreling past the pits (open pipes in those days of course) and they weren't quiet, but you could still hear the Mazda on the other side of the circuit!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Oh, You really need to get it on a decent AV system or listen through some good cans to get the true all enveloping ear splitting effect! Gorgeous "blippy" gear down changes too! Interesting variation on the theme when it hits the rev limiter too?

 

[rmjbn1]

I've only seen Two-Lane Blacktop once (or One-Lane Blacktop twice?), I need to follow your lead and usher the other half off to some social function so I can also indulge in some clandestine film-watching at full volume

I had a hair-on-the-back-of-the-neck moment at LeMans Classic last year, when the V12 Matra MS660 first came round at the head of the field - the howl of that engine with a cheer from the crowd was something special.

That RX3 is surprisingly rapid! What a screamer of an engine, buzzing away at 8-9,500rpm. What a shame they couldn't get the rotary engine to a decent state of price, reliability & economy, I always had a soft spot for those engines. I wonder how many rotary Citroen GS's have suvived? Our Mazda mechanic offered me an RX7 for free last year, just before I got my Panda. Was tempted for a second or two. I think I made the right choice in the end. Both mechanic and owner were sick of the sight of it. Now, If the Mazda 787B comes back to LeMans...

 

[DaveMcT]

With today's electronics and direct injection there's now a place for 2 strokes. Rotax prove it with their E-TEC 800/850 but none of the car makers want to know.

Ford built the original Ka to have a three cylinder DI 2 stroke. They ran hundreds on test in the late 1990s. They were clean, reliable, good on fuel and needed much less maintenance. They were lean burn so got killed by the homologation rule which says O2 sensors must always have a three way cat. Lean burn wont work with "standard" catalyst systems. Ford scrapped the engine project, slapped in the old Kent engine and never looked back. The Mk 2 Ka went to Fiat as a warmed over Panda.

I suspect this is why nobody offers a two stoke like the Rotax in top tune or any tune levels.

Strokers with carbs or throttle body injectors are dirty. Use direct injection and they become very clean indeed.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I had a hair-on-the-back-of-the-neck moment at LeMans Classic last year, when the V12 Matra MS660 first came round at the head of the field - the howl of that engine with a cheer from the crowd was something special.

Don't know if you've read the post (somewhere elsewhere - still can't find my way around the forum efficiently!) about that Matra. I ran into them occasionally when assisting the sports car boys at endurance races (Le Mans, Spa 24 hours, Monza etc) I'm convinced it was directly responsible for the onset of my tinnitus! Standing at the pit wall as it Wailed past not feet away - glorious! I well remember the deep down tickling feeling in the ears which was, no doubt, the warning I should have heeded and gone and bought some ear plugs. But in those days we were all a bit macho!

The John Wyre 917's and Ferrari 512's were quiet by comparison - always liked the sound of a v12 Ferrari on open pipes though!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Ford built the original Ka to have a three cylinder DI 2 stroke. They ran hundreds on test in the late 1990s. They were clean, reliable, good on fuel and needed much less maintenance. They were lean burn so got killed by the homologation rule which says O2 sensors must always have a three way cat. Lean burn wont work with "standard" catalyst systems.

Thanks for that Dave. I have a vague memory of having read something about that engine but don't remember anything in detail. I do remember that ford were very active in lean burn development and listening to a technical rep at the time who was quite convinced that that was the way to go. Then the politicians - who, of course know all there is to know about engine development!! - brought in catalytic converters and that was that!

 

[DaveMcT]

The Orbital 2 strokes were very clever. In much the same way a gas burner premixes gas and air then adds additional air to complete combustion these did the same. After the piston ports had closed, a speaker coil injector pushed in a strong air fuel mixture into the cylinder. When the spark fired, the burn was initially rich but then quickly diluted by excess air in the cylinder. The end result was a very clean lean burn with very low NOx.
Oil consumption was low because there was no petrol to wash it off cylinder walls and bearings. It used more oil than a four stroke but never needed an oil change so no toxic crap to be disposed of.