Wheel alignment question

[jackwhoo]

It really is very difficult to measure accurately enough from one wheel rim to the other at 3 o'clock point on rim .....roll the vehicle forward until that point is at 9 o'clock position, re- measure and deduct one measurement from the other to give alignment.

How are you measuring? Where are you measuring?

 

[jackwhoo]

Its just the one from the downloads section on this

Add a link and I will check it.

Toe in front wheel drive is rare due to the nature of front wheel drive

 

[AnthonyH]

Add a link and I will check it.

Toe in front wheel drive is rare due to the nature of front wheel drive

Grande Punto Handbook 08/09

Grande Punto Handbook 08/09

www.fiatforum.com

Thanks.

 

[jackwhoo]

Grande Punto Handbook 08/09

Grande Punto Handbook 08/09

www.fiatforum.com

Thanks.

Can't get that as I'm using phone.

 

[portland_bill]

Is that what the manual says? Or does experience make you think this?

No idea about the manual or this specific vehicle. A lifetime in the motor industry suggests that for many years, FWD cars are set around the parallel mark, with a few requiring something different, but not usually by much.

 

[jackwhoo]

I am intrigued how the op is attempting home measuring ?
with a hope of getting somewhere close let alone within 1mm.
The best guess at home should be aiming zero toe.

 

[portland_bill]

I am intrigued how the op is attempting home measuring ?
with a hope of getting somewhere close let alone within 1mm.
The best guess at home should be aiming zero toe.

A steel tape betweeen the wheels perhaps? That's a challenge.
I have done it with a piece of string stretched across front, then back of the wheels, and marked with a pencil. Gets it close enough to drive to the alignment centre.

 

[AnthonyH]

A steel tape betweeen the wheels perhaps? That's a challenge.
I have done it with a piece of string stretched across front, then back of the wheels, and marked with a pencil. Gets it close enough to drive to the alignment centre.

I have a cunning plan Maybe I've watched too much Blackadder lately LOL.

I take pictures of the tyre tread, take pictures of the thread on the tie rod, record the date and mileage - and then wait! As I'm driving around 800 miles a week at the moment, i don't have to wait long before any irregular tyre tread shows up.

I know the pitch of the thread on the tie rod, its 1.5mm, so one full turn per wheel is 1.5mm toe-in or toe-out. I've marked the tie rods around the circumference into thirds with tippex. I can rotate both inner tie rods by one third and I have 1mm total change.

I suspect we may be at the point where people start telling me to take it to the garage for alignment. I won't be doing that lol

 

[AnthonyH]

The best guess at home should be aiming zero toe.

I may do this, I can edge away from slight toe-in 1mm total at a time, then when it switches to toe out, drag back in 1mm.

This is a labour intensive technique for sure, but thats OK. Cars are my hobby at the moment.

 

[jackwhoo]

I have a cunning plan Maybe I've watched too much Blackadder lately LOL.

I take pictures of the tyre tread, take pictures of the thread on the tie rod, record the date and mileage - and then wait! As I'm driving around 800 miles a week at the moment, i don't have to wait long before any irregular tyre tread shows up.

I know the pitch of the thread on the tie rod, its 1.5mm, so one full turn per wheel is 1.5mm toe-in or toe-out. I've marked the tie rods around the circumference into thirds with tippex. I can rotate both inner tie rods by one third and I have 1mm total change.

I suspect we may be at the point where people start telling me to take it to the garage for alignment. I won't be doing that lol

Once a tyre has worn irregularly the wear is set and cannot be undone by ajusting the toe setting.

Tie rod pitch 1.5mm so one turn changes the toe by 1.5mm.......No , not all.

The tie rod end is closer to the steering pivot point (the line between the strut top mount and lower ball joint) than the tyre bead seat in the wheel(where alignment measurements made). Changing the tie rod length by say 1mm will change the position of the tyre bead seat by more than 1mm , due to leverage.

If you change the tie rod length by say 1mm and that turns out to move the rear edge of wheel by say 1.5mm you have also changed the front edge of the wheel by 1.5mm = change in toe of 3mm.
If you do this to both tie rods you have changed the toe by 6mm.
Can I recommend you don't do this.
Can I also please highly recommend you get alignment done correctly .

If you then wish to alter alignment you have a correct starting point

 

[AnthonyH]

Once a tyre has worn irregularly the wear is set and cannot be undone by ajusting the toe setting.

Tie rod pitch 1.5mm so one turn changes the toe by 1.5mm.......No , not all.

The tie rod end is closer to the pivot point of the line between the strut top mount and lower ball joint than the tyre bead seat in the wheel. Changing the tie rod length by say 1mm will change the position of the tyre bead seat by more than 1mm .

If you change the tie rod length by say 1mm and that turns out to move the rear edge of wheel by say 1.5mm you have also changed the front edge of the wheel by 1.5mm = change in toe of 3mm.
If you do this to both tie rods you have changed the toe by 6mm.
Can I recommend you don't do this.
Can I also please highly recommend you get alignment done correctly .

If you then wish to alter alignment you have a correct starting point

Thanks for the help, but as noted above i've made my mind up.

 

[jackwhoo]

Thanks for the help, but as noted above i've made my mind up.

I understand you wish to do it yourself

Please read my explanation why a 1.5mm adjustment of the rod makes a massive toe difference I took time to try and help .
Sorry I read you are doing 1/3 turn adjustments both sides at a time but it will still be much more toe change than you have calculated and I am not sure the toe was correct to start with.

 

[AnthonyH]

I understand you wish to do it yourself

Please read my explanation why a 1.5mm adjustment of the rod makes a massive toe difference I took time to try and help .

I am reading it and processing it, its good info!

I think these threads probably end in the same way every time. Its complicated, and i've advanced my understanding, so all good.

 

[rmjbn1]

Here's the alignment on my Panda not long after I got her, showing front toe should be zero, rear 1.5mm toe in each side.

Marvel at how my rear toe was hopelessly out on each side but in different directions so on average it was within tolerance for total toe
I've had fun with shims at the rear. It was shredding the left rear tyre but under control now.

 

[StevenRB45]

Here's the alignment on my Panda not long after I got her, showing front toe should be zero, rear 1.5mm toe in each side.
View attachment 454924View attachment 454925
Marvel at how my rear toe was hopelessly out on each side but in different directions so on average it was within tolerance for total toe
I've had fun with shims at the rear. It was shredding the left rear tyre but under control now.

Hark at thee and your Fancy machine

 

[AnthonyH]

Here's the alignment on my Panda not long after I got her, showing front toe should be zero, rear 1.5mm toe in each side.
View attachment 454924View attachment 454925
Marvel at how my rear toe was hopelessly out on each side but in different directions so on average it was within tolerance for total toe

You're making me jealous! I have to spend hours messing around with rod ends and photographing my tyres, and you get to sit and look at cool graphics lol

I've had fun with shims at the rear. It was shredding the left rear tyre but under control now.

Now we're talking! Tell me more about the shredding! lol

 

[AnthonyH]

Here's the alignment on my Panda not long after I got her, showing front toe should be zero, rear 1.5mm toe in each side.
View attachment 454924View attachment 454925
Marvel at how my rear toe was hopelessly out on each side but in different directions so on average it was within tolerance for total toe
I've had fun with shims at the rear. It was shredding the left rear tyre but under control now.

Being serious, I can see that you're front axle was toe-in on one wheel and toe-out on the other, which neatly answers my original question.

 

[rmjbn1]

Hark at thee and your Fancy machine

you get to sit and look at cool graphics lol

Haha nowt to do with me, I just took piccies of the read-out at our local tyre place.

It carried on shredding tyres after alignment was done (of course the only thing they could adjust was front toe), so I'm in the same boat as you, watching my tyres like a hawk and tweaking / fettling / bodging as I go

I got a full set of new boots 2000 miles ago and the fronts are starting to scrub the shoulders ever so slightly.with a hint of feathering.

As I understand, feathering on the outer shoulder indicates excessive toe-out so I wound the track rods in a flat each side and see how it goes.

Of course, might just be my driving on country lanes doing that damage, and my uprights and top mounts are fairly ancient so it probably won't ever be square until I change them.

 

[jackwhoo]

Different toe side to side on front wheels is only relevant and measurable if the steering wheel is positioned dead ahead and the measuring system has a way of measuring the exact centre line of the vehicle.

 

[AnthonyH]

Haha nowt to do with me, I just took piccies of the read-out at our local tyre place.

It carried on shredding tyres after alignment was done (of course the only thing they could adjust was front toe), so I'm in the same boat as you, watching my tyres like a hawk and tweaking / fettling / bodging as I go

I'd never admit to shredding tyres lol. But i may be watching them like a hawk

I got a full set of new boots 2000 miles ago and the fronts are starting to scrub the shoulders ever so slightly.with a hint of feathering.

I've not noticed much on the fronts for about 500 miles. I make a little squeal when turning sharp right though, so I know one of them isn't correct. (tyre pressure is ok)

As I understand, feathering on the outer shoulder indicates excessive toe-out so I wound the track rods in a flat each side and see how it goes.

Of course, might just be my driving on country lanes doing that damage, and my uprights and top mounts are fairly ancient so it probably won't ever be square until I change them.

As far as I know lots of cornering will accelerate any unusual tyre wear, but not cause it. Maybe it'll need some adjustment in the future.