What's made you smile today?

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well that explains the sparks.

Single use sump, no plug.

Like a Smart car?

Edit. Smart cars have no sump plug evidently?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Late yesterday afternoon our Fireman neighbour, who I think I can almost now call a "friend"? knocked on my door. His wife's car, An elderly, 2nd generation, Kia Rio, won't start. Can I give them a jump? Aye, of course I can, but let's just do a couple of quick checks first. So, grabbing my Multimeter, We returned up the street to his house.

Ok, first off, what's the standing battery voltage? Approx 8 volts, that's not a good start. How long since it was last run? About 3 days but up to then it's been starting "fine". So lets just try a start and let me hear what's happening. Key turned and engine, very slowly, goes Wump, wump - two cylinders going over compression - and stops. Cranking voltage around 5 volts - I'm surprised it turned over at all!

Ok, so the battery is definitely "flat". Well yes, said he, I know that, so can you just give it a jump? (Wife needs to take the kids somewhere) Well, I could but with a battery showing these readings she may not be able to later restart it so they can come home! Oh, said he looking disappointed, but won't it charge up with the engine running? Maybe was my answer, but she's not going very far is she so unlikely enough charge will be achieved.

The battery itself is not the original and certainly doesn't look in it's first flush of youth either. Oh how I wish I had a battery condition analyser! Anyway, he started, quite politely, "leaning" on me to jump it. So, against my better judgement, I popped back to my house and got my big jump battery. Connected in the accepted way, ie. pos on my battery to pos on the Kia using the "red" lead, then and my battery's negative terminal to the cylinder head of the Kia using the "black" lead. But WOAH, as I touch the negative clamp to the head there's quite a spark! Don't like the look of that. Never a good thing is electric sparks! So I didn't continue but suggested we do a parasitic drain test first which would at least give us some idea if there was a serious short going on somewhere. He didn't have time for me to muck about as he decided to run the kids and wife to wherever it was they were going in his car and said he'd check in with me tomorrow to resume the task.

I went back to my garage with my big battery - that's a heavy thing to wander about the streets with - and to search for my ammeter - which I haven't used for many years (much safer to check stuff on voltage scales if possible so I avoid going near taking amperages wherever possible) and after turning out a load of "useful stuff" there it was at the back of the shelf I keep all my electrical gear on:

View attachment 448827

It's an old and "trusted" friend I acquired at the Portobello autojumble many years ago. I'm expecting to see the needle barely flicker when introduced in series with the battery and negative lead, ignition off, doors closed etc, of course. Let's hope there's not a massive short which will "kill" the meter. - Note to self, Must fit a fuse into one of the leads - As I was thinking about the prospect of a serious short and associated sparks etc that go with such things I was suddenly "hit" by a thunderbolt of a realization - Of course that earth lead sparked when you went to connect to the head, the vehicle battery is pretty much DEAD! and I was, in effect, connecting a fully charged battery (my big jump battery) directly across the vehicle's "dead" battery by doing so. There was likely a potential difference of around 6 volts going on here, Of course it sparked you numpty! By the way, for those less experience members reading this, that spark is why you never make the final earth connection to the battery negative terminal - batteries emit hydrogen and oxygen gasses, highly inflammable, BANG! - As all you "old lags" know I'm sure.

So, if, as I expect, I see no, or very little parasitic drain when I test later today (most probably) then I'm going to connect up my big jump battery and I'm confident I'll then be able to start the engine. I'll leave the jump battery connected while I check for battery voltage to see if the alternator is charging - expecting to see somewhere in the region of 13.5 to 14.5 volts. If this all checks out I'll let it run with the jump connected for 5 minutes or so to allow the duff battery and jump battery voltages to balance before disconnecting the jump battery and we'll take a drive down to Halfords where they, I know, will do a free battery condition check for us and, if needed, I can use my trade card to get him a good discount on a new battery.

I'm pretty confident that what we've got here is simply a failing battery with sulphated plates and unable to keep it's charge over any period of time. The standing voltage observed was around 8 volts and the engine very nearly cranked so I'm not worried about an internal short in the battery - I wouldn't be bothering to try any of this if battery voltage was very low or zero as it's pointless trying to "wake up" such a battery. However, at 8 volts, it might just be needing a good charge or it might be needing a new battery, The battery condition test should establish the answer to that question.

So now I've got a big smile on my face and hoping for a not too expensive outcome for my new friend.

Update on the above. This Kia is the Fireman's wife's car and her father and mother are away on holiday so she has borrowed their car to get around in which takes the pressure off doing something about her car. Anyway, the fireman turns up at our door mid morning yesterday but I was out doing a quick supermarket shop for bread, milk and a couple if other things so Mrs J said I'd be back in about a half hour. Once home I went along to his house with the ammeter and wired it in series with the battery earth lead - having made sure ign, heated rear screen, and everything else I could think of was off, and doors shut too. Of course there are sometimes things which stay live for a while after closing a modern car's doors but, if all's well, you wouldn't expect them to draw much current. It's a very basic 0 to 10 amps gauge So wasn't expecting and hoping for much action if all was well Needless to say I was very pleased to see the needle on the dial hardly flicker. So I think can safely conclude there's no parasitic drain going on here. Also checked across the battery terminals with my multimeter and the open circuit voltage really hasn't changed from what I saw last time I checked it.

Interestingly and unscientifically, I notice the ends of the battery casing are slightly bowed out which is a classic symptom of a knackered battery with swollen plates. For those not familiar with this, as a battery ages sulphation builds up on the surface of the plates which effectively increases the thickness of the plate. When it gets quite bad it pushes the ends of the battery case outwards and causes them to bulge. Most often you need to be looking for this as it's only a slight bulge (unless the sulphation is really very bad) but it's enough that you'll see quite clearly that the ends are not flat. A bulging battery case is just another thing to look for when you suspect the battery may be at the end of it's life. Just out of interest I connected up the CTEK as mine is one of the better ones which does a diagnostic before attempting to charge and, unsurprisingly, it refused to initiate charging. I've discouvered in the past that if I connect up a good battery in parallel it fools the CTEK into thinking the duff battery is actually good and it will then start charging, whereupon I can then disconnect the good battery and the CTEK, in ignorance, will continue to charge the bad battery - I've done this on my boy's Punto battery when it was failing - but I noticed the charger got much hotter than normal so I wouldn't do it again.

The outcome of all this messing about is that I think we can safely conclude the wee Kia's battery is deceased! My new friend, the fireman, then had to go on shift so couldn't wait for me to do any more but tomorrow I think I'll jump it with my big jump battery and check if the alternator is charging properly. If it is I'll leave my jump battery connected for a while with the engine running, to get a bit of charge built up in the duff battery before disconnecting the jump battery. Doing this won't "sort" the duff battery but it will reduce any sudden change in voltage status when I disconnect the jump battery thus greatly reducing the risk of the vehicle regulator having a "moment" as the jump leads are removed. If all is well - I'll be monitoring what battery voltage is doing while I do all this - Then I can safely say to him that he needs a new battery (which, in my heart of hearts I've suspected all along).

There's a new factor though. He's asking, Do I think the old battery will charge up well enough if he drives the car around for an hour or so, for it to start the car next morning? Well, who can say. Maybe is the best I can do on that front, but why not just buy a new battery - I've already offered to accompany him to Halfords and use my trade card to get him a good price on a "cheapie" Halfords battery. Well, they've decided to sell the Kia as they feel they can't rely on it now and he doesn't want to lay cash out on a new battery. Personally I'd have no problem with this if he's part Xing it but not on a private sale please. Anyway, he's a very sociable chap so maybe I'll talk him into a new battery when we're jumping it and checking if it's charging ok.

Once I know the outcome I'll do one last post to update you all (if you haven't all gone to sleep with this "Saga")

 

[vexorg]

I'd have said "new battery" and left it at that.

 

[bugsymike]

Update on the above. This Kia is the Fireman's wife's car and her father and mother are away on holiday so she has borrowed their car to get around in which takes the pressure off doing something about her car. Anyway, the fireman turns up at our door mid morning yesterday but I was out doing a quick supermarket shop for bread, milk and a couple if other things so Mrs J said I'd be back in about a half hour. Once home I went along to his house with the ammeter and wired it in series with the battery earth lead - having made sure ign, heated rear screen, and everything else I could think of was off, and doors shut too. Of course there are sometimes things which stay live for a while after closing a modern car's doors but, if all's well, you wouldn't expect them to draw much current. It's a very basic 0 to 10 amps gauge So wasn't expecting and hoping for much action if all was well Needless to say I was very pleased to see the needle on the dial hardly flicker. So I think can safely conclude there's no parasitic drain going on here. Also checked across the battery terminals with my multimeter and the open circuit voltage really hasn't changed from what I saw last time I checked it.

Interestingly and unscientifically, I notice the ends of the battery casing are slightly bowed out which is a classic symptom of a knackered battery with swollen plates. For those not familiar with this, as a battery ages sulphation builds up on the surface of the plates which effectively increases the thickness of the plate. When it gets quite bad it pushes the ends of the battery case outwards and causes them to bulge. Most often you need to be looking for this as it's only a slight bulge (unless the sulphation is really very bad) but it's enough that you'll see quite clearly that the ends are not flat. A bulging battery case is just another thing to look for when you suspect the battery may be at the end of it's life. Just out of interest I connected up the CTEK as mine is one of the better ones which does a diagnostic before attempting to charge and, unsurprisingly, it refused to initiate charging. I've discouvered in the past that if I connect up a good battery in parallel it fools the CTEK into thinking the duff battery is actually good and it will then start charging, whereupon I can then disconnect the good battery and the CTEK, in ignorance, will continue to charge the bad battery - I've done this on my boy's Punto battery when it was failing - but I noticed the charger got much hotter than normal so I wouldn't do it again.

The outcome of all this messing about is that I think we can safely conclude the wee Kia's battery is deceased! My new friend, the fireman, then had to go on shift so couldn't wait for me to do any more but tomorrow I think I'll jump it with my big jump battery and check if the alternator is charging properly. If it is I'll leave my jump battery connected for a while with the engine running, to get a bit of charge built up in the duff battery before disconnecting the jump battery. Doing this won't "sort" the duff battery but it will reduce any sudden change in voltage status when I disconnect the jump battery thus greatly reducing the risk of the vehicle regulator having a "moment" as the jump leads are removed. If all is well - I'll be monitoring what battery voltage is doing while I do all this - Then I can safely say to him that he needs a new battery (which, in my heart of hearts I've suspected all along).

There's a new factor though. He's asking, Do I think the old battery will charge up well enough if he drives the car around for an hour or so, for it to start the car next morning? Well, who can say. Maybe is the best I can do on that front, but why not just buy a new battery - I've already offered to accompany him to Halfords and use my trade card to get him a good price on a "cheapie" Halfords battery. Well, they've decided to sell the Kia as they feel they can't rely on it now and he doesn't want to lay cash out on a new battery. Personally I'd have no problem with this if he's part Xing it but not on a private sale please. Anyway, he's a very sociable chap so maybe I'll talk him into a new battery when we're jumping it and checking if it's charging ok.

Once I know the outcome I'll do one last post to update you all (if you haven't all gone to sleep with this "Saga")

It's always the same with the non paying jobs
I use this. It's fairly conclusive.

 

[The Panda Nut]

1 down 3 to go. Thanks to those who recommended Bilt Hamber ub50 and uc50. You are right its very good.

 

[StevenRB45]

Like a Smart car?

Edit. Smart cars have no sump plug evidently?

Not the only one seem to recall some premium brands expect service to be carried out from the top with suction re. Oil.

However the set up of the photo is clearly just nonsense

 

[bugsymike]

1 down 3 to go. Thanks to those who recommended Bilt Hamber ub50 and uc50. You are right its very good.

When you get bored I have a few vehicles that are feeling neglected, two even have Fiat badges on

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It's always the same with the non paying jobs
I use this. It's fairly conclusive.

That's the thing Mike. I've been looking at the Topdon BT200 and Foxwell BT715 - just haven't quite got round to spending the money yet. Keep asking myself whether, at my age and with my health now putting restrictions on my activities, Do I really need one? The answer is probably no, but doesn't stop me wanting one!

 

[vexorg]

However the set up of the photo is clearly just nonsense

Is it? Or are they trying to remove the undertray bolts, wiring someone has replaced them by stainless bolts

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'd have said "new battery" and left it at that.

Aye, tempting, but he helped me choose and position my smoke/heat alarms when our government made them compulsory - saved me some cash and ensured i was legally compliant (which is important for insurance purposes. So I kind of feel beholden to him. Anyway, he seems to be a nice guy with a nice family and we all tend to help each other around here - It's a nice place to live.

 

[bugsymike]

That's the thing Mike. I've been looking at the Topdon BT200 and Foxwell BT715 - just haven't quite got round to spending the money yet. Keep asking myself whether, at my age and with my health now putting restrictions on my activities, Do I really need one? The answer is probably no, but doesn't stop me wanting one!

I always say you can never have too many tools, however if it means you haven't got to lug a heavy battery across the road to start the guys car?.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I always say you can never have too many tools, however if it means you haven't got to lug a heavy battery across the road to start the guys car?.

Lugging heavy batteries about? Nothing like a nice big "real" battery for jump starting is there. However I really like the idea of a super capacitor jump start pack - not the more usual Li-ion jobbie.

Going to make him carry the battery up there and back to my house afterwards! He's super fit, as you'd expect a fireman to be and anyway must be some 40 years younger than me at least!

 

[bugsymike]

Going to make him carry the battery up there and back to my house afterwards! He's super fit, as you'd expect a fireman to be and anyway must be some 40 years younger than me at least!

Ha,ha, Everyone's younger than you
Oh! and me;(

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Lugging heavy batteries about? Nothing like a nice big "real" battery for jump starting is there. However I really like the idea of a super capacitor jump start pack - not the more usual Li-ion jobbie.

Going to make him carry the battery up there and back to my house afterwards! He's super fit, as you'd expect a fireman to be and anyway must be some 40 years younger than me at least!

There’s your next project, make a little trolley for your battery, seems not a week goes by you don’t use it, so having a little handle on a trolley to push it about and some hooks on the handle to wind a set of jump leads on

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Ha,ha, Everyone's younger than you
Oh! and me;(

Too right. Have you seen some of the baby faced policemen and women about these days? But, oh no, it's just I'm so old and crusty. Hate looking at the flesh on the inside of my legs and upper arms these days, looks like Turkey neck skin, horrible! Hardly recognize the face looking back at me in the mirror every morning either!

 

[bugsymike]

Too right. Have you seen some of the baby faced policemen and women about these days? But, oh no, it's just I'm so old and crusty. Hate looking at the flesh on the inside of my legs and upper arms these days, looks like Turkey neck skin, horrible! Hardly recognize the face looking back at me in the mirror every morning either!

I thought I was wearing well until I used my glasses.
Although I was speaking to another friend who commented that we were similar age, until it turned out he was about 8 years younger.
I say having children keeps you young.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

There’s your next project, make a little trolley for your battery, seems not a week goes by you don’t use it, so having a little handle on a trolley to push it about and some hooks on the handle to wind a set of jump leads on

I was thinking of doing that - great minds think alike they say? Actually I have a small sack barrow which I tried once but the battery nearly fell off due to the rattling about. I might think about making a wee frame to retain it. - I feel a "project" coming on.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I thought I was wearing well until I used my glasses.
Although I was speaking to another friend who commented that we were similar age, until it turned out he was about 8 years younger.
I say having children keeps you young.

Oh yes, children and grandchildren. I want to live as long as possible because youngest grandson, soon to be 5, has a definite flare for the practical and I see a lot of the younger me in him - poor sod! I want to see how he turns out. Youngest granddaughter, now 11, is a bit of a stunner too - definitely doesn't get that from me - and is pretty close to me. I think she'd be more likely to talk to me about things that worried her than any other family member and I want to be around to advise and protect her.

 

[The Panda Nut]

When you get bored I have a few vehicles that are feeling neglected, two even have Fiat badges on

This was Peanut the 2016 car. It was rust but not excessively. Just a power wash and a very small amount of wire brushing. The Bilt Hamber is I believe air propelled and the cans are charged to 70 ot 80psi so they can be used at any angle, even upside down. The stuff came out nicely unlike the Dinitrol I usually use, which is tempremantal and requies warming. The finished result looks even better than the pics. The brake job done yesterday also looks effective as the discs seem to be shining up, so just three to treat axles on now and servicing will begin. Nudge is ia the 2017 car, and thankfully came with new discs so I just need to check the calipers and slider pins. The other two will probably not even need the power washer. Speaking of that, the old washer stopped a while ago. So I replaced it. Actually It just needed a good clean of the commutator and its going again so pensioned off to patio duties and greenhouse cleaning. It probably really needs new brushes. Its a lot heavier to cart around so the new one has some advantage if you remember to adjust the pressure and make it work....
Next I have to sort the spare wheel and get a tyre for Nudge, and organsise a jack, then its time for the next round of servicing . So I will start on yours but only when Im done, and after Im can walk again, AND only if the temperature is abouve 15C. Providing nothing else crops up. LOL

The big issue with all this is I now need two weeks in a convalescent home until I can walk again..... I can barely stand up, so I shall self medicate with booze. Probably quite a lot of it.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Ha,ha, Everyone's younger than you
Oh! and me;(

Alas Im not far behind you. Say lar vee. (Oh I just did)