What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[bugsymike]

I used to subscribe to this but it only works if there are few other cars on the road and you've got space and time to have a slide and bring it back.

In 2010 we had snow on the ground from 1st of December to about 5th of January..and I got around on a set of Continental summer tyres.

If your barometer of no problem is "but did you die?" No, I didn't however I also came significantly closer than you probably should on a regular basis. My stand out memory is during freezing rain missing my dad's drive way 3 times before giving up and parking down the street.

I'm no longer 18-25 and significantly less likely to eagerly hop out of a car shovel in hand or tyre socks in hand because such things are cold and inconvenient. The other thing being occasionally you just find a bad bit unexpectedly...and in those situations on summer tyres luck is more important than skill, you may catch the slide but find yourself a bonnet ornament on a skidding range rover because you've left your lane and they can't stop either.

I did actually debate if the all seasons were the right thing anymore as it seems winters are getting warmer in general, this year is the 1st year we've had snow for more than a day since about 2019 but still seems winter has some teeth left. Although again hardly staying between -4 and -8 for weeks on end as it did 10 years ago.

I do agree and having good quality Winter tyres when weather bad makes all the difference, I had some on an old Doblo with S/H snow tyres on all round and just gripping and pulling away up our road when all the other cars had polished it and slid to a standstill impressed me. The only downside I noticed was in the wet with "spirited driving" around corners the rear end could be more prone to slipping, but maybe I was pushing my luck.
If I kept my vehicles longer then a set of spare winter wheels and tyres may be of use, but given the lack of Winter generally in this area not viable.
The last decent snow I can remember here was as a child in 1962 going down what normally was a busy steep hill that cars had abandoned, on a tea tray.

 

[portland_bill]

I had a set of winter tyres on the Panda for a few years. As soon as the temp went below 7 degrees, you could feel the difference. Each year, as they age hardened, their performance diminished, but still noticeably better than the summers. However, here in South Oxfordshire, we get little snow, and usually only for a day or two.

Last winter, I had a valve perish and split, releasing all the air, and destroying one winter tyre. Not worth adding one new to the other three old ones, so the rest were scrap too. The downside of swapping tyres twice a year, is that they get old, long before they wear out, and apparently, the valves can get old sooner.

Currently running on the summers, waiting for them to wear out, so they will be replaced with a set of all-seasons, as a good compromise. The summers are adequate in snow, being 155 section, but are noticeably harder now than when new. So they seem to be taking longer to wear out.

 

[StevenRB45]

I would find it hard to justify a second set.

One of the things that keeps tyres supple is regular driving so sitting in a shed 6 months of the year is less than ideal.

Even with our now increased annual mileage I'd be throwing tyres away long before they wore out due to age cracking given they'd only be on about 5k a year each maybe 6 4 summer to winter.

Also either your tyres cost twice as much or to maintain any semblance of budget you end up with a poor set of summers and a poor set of winters and realise the full benefits of neither.

If I was running a fast car with precise handling and didn't really care about the cost I'd switch them, but the reality of the all season is it has neither the precision of the summer or the true ice performance of a good winter..but it's good enough at everything you can just leave it on and call it done.

 

[irc]

Last winter, I had a valve perish and split, releasing all the air, and destroying one winter tyre. Not worth adding one new to the other three old ones, so the rest were scrap too. The downside of swapping tyres twice a year, is that they get old, long before they wear out, and apparently, the valves can get old sooner.

Now there's a coincidence - last week my Mondeo was in for an MOT. Only done 2500 miles since the last one, and everything fine except... 3 of the 4 valves had seriously deep perish cracks in. Tyres are about 4 years old and still have between 4 and 5mm tread, and no signs of perishing.
I hadn't noticed the valve problems (it doesn't lose air pressure between services, and I get it serviced straight after the MOT), so other than a quick visual check of tread and signs of damage, no real reason to touch them.
Not had that before, and not visible unless you slightly bend the valve stem.
Cost me a few quid to get the valves changed, but was easier than having to return for a re-test.
But cheaper than suddenly losing air pressure and wrecking a tyre or having an accident.

So... worth checking your valve stems. They don't seem to last as well as they used to.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I love all these snow threads, my only problem is as I mentioned before "Wot is snow?" , here in sunny Torbay Winter is just rain, roughly every ten years or so we may get the odd inch of wet snow which totally confuses the majority of people, sliding into each other etc. However within a day or so it is back to rain.
I recall back in the 1970s when I still had a little spare cash (pre wives) I went skiing in Italy, I was useless , but it was great fun. The locals all came up the mountain on the weekend and I remember a Fiat 127 wheel spinning to a halt , the large Italian family all piled out and sat on the bonnet apart from driver, they pulled away happily and continued on their journey, my point is if you are used to the climate there is no problem generally.

You wait famous last words. We shall charge when we are asked to deliver your groceries when you are buried in the snow. When the next ice age starts it will be entirely your fault and we shall remind you of this over and over!!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Now far be it from me to point out that in most road conditions 4x4 is excess weight and the tyres are what makes the difference . Although I'm sure you could out rock crawl me.

Yes but better weight distribution front to back and less to go wrong.

 

[The Panda Nut]

All this tyre talk is depressing as Daffo needs two more - and a new axle really- quote for this with a full tracking £250 and that with discount as a regular. As its my daughters car. Continetals being done Tuesday. Yes I know there are lots of cheaper options but the road holding and handling on these is way better than anything its had before. Ruby our Archbishop coloured Panda needs a tyre too as its running on 9 year old boots. They look OK and there is plenty of tread so maybe in the spring. I really hate putting one tyre on though, so may be time to get a pair, put a full sized spare in with this tyre and throw the space saver away. Or is that just as daft.

 

[StevenRB45]

Yes but better weight distribution front to back and less to go wrong.

Not sure I subscribe to that...my centre prop shaft bearing has an infinite service life on the basis it can't break if it isn't there...

Also if balanced weight distribution was good for snow..well BMWs would be the ultimate snow driving machine.

If anything our cars deeply unbalanced nearly 70% weight front bias puts all the weight over the wheels that do the majority of the work.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Not sure I subscribe to that...my centre prop shaft bearing has an infinite service life on the basis it can't break if it isn't there...

Also if balanced weight distribution was good for snow..well BMWs would be the ultimate snow driving machine.

If anything our cars deeply unbalanced nearly 70% weight front bias puts all the weight over the wheels that do the majority of the work.

NAH these less strain as the weight is distributed through all four corners so it will all last indefinitely too. You wont be saying that when your stuck in a ditch. LOL
I know I dont need the 4x4. I wanted it to be sure I could get to my mum in her last few years irrespective of the weather. It did the trick and certainly removed any fear of snow and ice beingan issue. Im just hooked. Im unlikely to buy another 4x4 now the Panda has gone. I wouldnt by Peugeot / Stellantis is they were the only car company so there isnt really anything else now. I do much prefer teh handling of the 4x4 and the ride which are clearly related to the differnt charcateristics, most of which is weight. Oddly I have a string of Citroen BXs in the 80s and 90s and the estate was way better to drive than the hatch again just a tadmore weight on the back due to the bigger overhang I think.

I have great book. " Great Small Fiats" by Phil Ward published by Veloce. Recomend it to everyone. It covers from the Topolino onwards. Its a topic on here why the Panda is so good to drive. Its pretty clear reading this book, that its down to the very long slow progression and gradual improvement approach that is liked and hated in equal measure on here. Im sure that retaining the DNA and incremental development is why these cars are so good. They feel familiar and we are comfortable with that. Bit Porshe 911 and VW like. Changing everything sometimes works well but the Fiat way is more human. Its also notable how often some manufacturers get to a point where they have to throw everything away and start again, and again and again and how few cars of that school of design remain after the changes are made. No one wants them and off to the scrapyard they all go

 

[The Panda Nut]

I had a set of winter tyres on the Panda for a few years. As soon as the temp went below 7 degrees, you could feel the difference. Each year, as they age hardened, their performance diminished, but still noticeably better than the summers. However, here in South Oxfordshire, we get little snow, and usually only for a day or two.

Last winter, I had a valve perish and split, releasing all the air, and destroying one winter tyre. Not worth adding one new to the other three old ones, so the rest were scrap too. The downside of swapping tyres twice a year, is that they get old, long before they wear out, and apparently, the valves can get old sooner.

Currently running on the summers, waiting for them to wear out, so they will be replaced with a set of all-seasons, as a good compromise. The summers are adequate in snow, being 155 section, but are noticeably harder now than when new. So they seem to be taking longer to wear out.

Sounds logical. Trouble with Pandas is tyres last quite well anyway. Ruby is giung to exceed a 40K average per tyre. Maybe I should I should fit Daffo with All seasons Goodyears to try them. That car uses tyres like it used windscreen washer fluid and I cant seem to stop it, so we could always go back to standard before too long. I tried Michelin All seasons on my mothers car. These were generally good tyres, no complaints, but in snow they were as near as useless. I dont decry the tyre but wouldnt pay a penny extra for it. I am thinking of having two all seasons on Ruby. Shes the 2014 1,2 Lounge. Might have them on the front in winter and put them on the back in summer. Might be a way of geting best benefit? It would certainly make an interesting comparrison as long as the back didnt overtake the front at some point. I dont know if there are recommendations against having them on the back though.

 

[StevenRB45]

NAH these less strain as the weight is distributed through all four corners so it will all last indefinitely too. You wont be saying that when your stuck in a ditch. LOL
I know I dont need the 4x4. I wanted it to be sure I could get to my mum in her last few years irrespective of the weather. It did the trick and certainly removed any fear of snow and ice beingan issue. Im just hooked. Im unlikely to buy another 4x4 now the Panda has gone. I wouldnt by Peugeot / Stellantis is they were the only car company so there isnt really anything else now. I do much prefer teh handling of the 4x4 and the ride which are clearly related to the differnt charcateristics, most of which is weight. Oddly I have a string of Citroen BXs in the 80s and 90s and the estate was way better to drive than the hatch again just a tadmore weight on the back due to the bigger overhang I think.

I have great book. " Great Small Fiats" by Phil Ward published by Veloce. Recomend it to everyone. It covers from the Topolino onwards. Its a topic on here why the Panda is so good to drive. Its pretty clear reading this book, that its down to the very long slow progression and gradual improvement approach that is liked and hated in equal measure on here. Im sure that retaining the DNA and incremental development is why these cars are so good. They feel familiar and we are comfortable with that. Bit Porshe 911 and VW like. Changing everything sometimes works well but the Fiat way is more human. Its also notable how often some manufacturers get to a point where they have to throw everything away and start again, and again and again and how few cars of that school of design remain after the changes are made. No one wants them and off to the scrapyard they all go

Fiats stopped being fun when they introduced electric PAS and drive by wire throttle in my humble opinion .

The old muscle powered steering in my Uno and my first mk1 Punto had a level of communication that entirely ended with the electric rack which may as well be disconnected..it was also deeply unreliable and expensive to fix. The hydraulic system in the more expensive mk1s wasn't great for feel either..but it at least had the good manners to not crap itself if the battery wasn't great. Also the throttle working in geological time was at odds to the older cars...turbo lag without the pay off.

Don't get me started on the Grande Corsa...

I.e. died years ago..at least we may see some new models now.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Fiats stopped being fun when they introduced electric PAS in my humble opinion .

The old muscle powered steering in my Uno and my first mk1 Punto had a level of communication that entirely ended with the electric rack which may as well be disconnected..it was also deeply unreliable and expensive to fix. The hydraulic system in the more expensive mk1s wasn't great for feel either..but it at least had the good manners to not crap itself if the battery wasn't great.

I don't get me started on the Grande Corsa...

I.e. died years ago..

I totally agree electric steering, its very very horrid. There is feel in the Panda (honestly guv) if you really really really concentrate, but only about 3% of what is desirable. The women drivers in my family cant feel anything. Thank goodness tyres are so good these days. Its really a bit of a joke having power steering on a Panda anyway. Who thought is was needed I wonder. That being said the steering on the 4x4 is much less offensive than in the 1.2s and may be, just, power steering for off the road could have some slight justification. It then makes you ask how many people drive a Panda off road . I view it as a small car that has the capacity to get you through when others get stuck. At this it is staggeringly good. But a serious off roader its not. Where I live its a bit of a swamp in winter so its a nice to have thing just pulling over to pass things could have you stuck fast. The Panda's structure is not designed for high volume serious off roading. I have no doubt that there would be a lot of problems if mine were used this way. Lots seem to do it and Im sure its big fun, but I wouldnt want the damage bills. You only need to look at U tube to see what occurs. At £20 cost grand the idea of wrecking the car is not appealing.

 

[StevenRB45]

As they say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..and to be fair our car has an absolutely feel free electric set up.

But in the context of the rest of the car it works given its a squishy sensory deprivation capsule steering feel would be very gauche. In a supposedly sporty DS3 it was terrible, in this it doesn't matter because it is not sporty.

For me it's all about fitness for purpose, I had the Mazda it drove far better...and netter than better than any Panda including the 100hp ever has, in terms of chassis, gearbox and steering absolutely set up for enthusiast.

So why did I get shot of that? Well...while steering feel and chasing the red line of a naturally aspirated engine through a lovely short shift gearbox and hanging on through the corners with beautifully weighted steering has merit. Realistically I don't do those things enough to keep a car for that purpose, in general terms it was harder riding, noisier, worse at motorway and thirsty. As a commuter being fun is generally at the expense of usable.

 

[The Panda Nut]

As they say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..and to be fair our car has an absolutely feel free electric set up.

But in the context of the rest of the car it works given its a squishy sensory deprivation capsule steering feel would be very gauche. In a supposedly sporty DS3 it was terrible, in this it doesn't matter because it is not sporty.

For me it's all about fitness for purpose, I had the Mazda it drove far better...and netter than better than any Panda including the 100hp ever has, in terms of chassis, gearbox and steering absolutely set up for enthusiast.

So why did I get shot of that? Well...while steering feel and chasing the red line of a naturally aspirated engine through a lovely short shift gearbox and hanging on through the corners with beautifully weighted steering has merit. Realistically I don't do those things enough to keep a car for that purpose, in general terms it was harder riding, noisier, worse at motorway and thirsty. As a commuter being fun is generally at the expense of usable.

Oh deers its seems we are all moving relentlessly towards a Citreeon Ami.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Oh deers its seems we are all moving relentlessly towards a Citreeon Ami.

Oh just realised its Stellantis so its striaght to one of those motorised pedestiran thingies missing out on the Ami for me.
Come to think of it they are probably all made by stellantis to judging by the style and build quality LOL

 

[StevenRB45]

Oh just realised its Stellantis so its striaght to one of those motorised pedestiran thingies missing out on the Ami for me.
Come to think of it they are probably all made by stellantis to judging by the style and build quality LOL

Given we've all owned Fiats at various points...glass houses definitely applies to Fiat build quality Vs Stellantis.

Shame you're out...

Fiat Ami is coming

And unlike the absolute utilitarianism of the Citroën version it has unique front and rear shells and is available in a decent colour.

 

[varesecrazy]

Given we've all owned Fiats at various points...glass houses definitely applies to Fiat build quality Vs Stellantis.

Shame you're out...

Fiat Ami is comingView attachment 434481

And unlike the absolute utilitarianism of the Citroën version it has unique front and rear shells and is available in a decent colour.

Well chosen picture .
'enough rope to hang itself' could be a phrase levelled at the usual FIAT photo

 

[Eklipze3k]

If they weren't ludcriously expensive for what they are, I'd absolutely have a Topolino for my daily commute, it's only a 12min drive each way and ICE engines have barely warmed up by that point, on site charging would make it an ideal choice. But too many ££s.

 

[StevenRB45]

If they weren't ludcriously expensive for what they are, I'd absolutely have a Topolino for my daily commute, it's only a 12min drive each way and ICE engines have barely warmed up by that point, on site charging would make it an ideal choice. But too many ££s.

Give it a few years they'll be scooter money and it's not like there's a huge amount of complex wiring and drivetrain to go wrong. Also if they do start doing a Wales and make everywhere 20mph the top speed is nearly excessive by 50%.

The one slight hiccup in your plan may be..they don't take a standard charger without an adapter. Seem to recall there's a 3 pin plug lead in one door as they aren't designed to be charged by anything stronger (only 5.5kwh battery so less than an hour even on a 3 pin).

 

[Eklipze3k]

That's fine, I can chuck a wire out the office window