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The answer clearly isn't in the favour of the poster, but re-asking time and time again does not change the commercial reality!
General Vat increase
- Thread starter stinkyparp
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General Vat increase
Your right, but the argument passed the legal VAT issue to one of whether the OP has a right to be upset and expect help from Fiat/Dealer. I think it is a simple answer of yes, they have every right to be annoyed. The other comments saying you should ignore what Fiat say about deliveries and have ordered 3 months earlier so it's your own fault is ridiculous.
The problem is that it's only an estimated time of delivery. On our order sheet we had an estimated date of delivery. As soon as terms such as estimated are used then there is no contractual obligation. The 500 is in the top 10 selling cars in the UK and probably up there across Europe so Fiat can demonstrate the demand for the car. At best the OP will get their deposit back and so they can do what? Order another car from another car maker? Seems to me like you'd be cutting your nose off to spite your face at this point in time if you did that. The 500 is a well built car which is popular. I didn't like the fact that Fiat missed their estimated date of delivery with my order and I didn't have it for my birthday in July and my wife had to sometimes walk to work, take the bus and scrounge lifts for an extra few weeks and I'd have happily have paid a few extra hundred pounds to have it there and then. But at the end of it all I realised that there was little that could be done and the best thing for me to do was grin and bear it.
If the OP actually calls the dealer up and suggests that he/she pays the VAT early and they agree then the issue of cost is null and void but no where does the OP actually say that they've contacted the dealer to suggest this which is typical of subjects on the 500 forum where someone complains about how bad their car, dealer, doner kebab etc etc is but doesn't actually do anything about it
When I had issues with my order and with the windscreen washers the first thing I did was contact the dealer and Fiat to sort things and it meant that I never got wound up like people on this forum seem to and my issues were always taken care of and I always felt like I was being dealt with. Communication is a two way thing people!
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You're right. The OP should get in touch and see what can be done but as yet it doesn't seem like he/she has. Sometimes though you have to accept that things just aren't going to go your way and that no one is at fault and that it's just the way the cookie crumbles.
There is no point going round in circles on this, but there is a statutory contractual obligation on deliveries even if they are not quoted. It would be based on industry norms (according to a judges intepretation) unless otherwise quoted by the seller in writing. Whether you could get compensation or if it is worth is another matter.
The argument is whether the OP should expect help from fiat/dealer and I think he should. Whether he has asked for it or not I don't know, he was asking whether he is right to be upset and pursue it.
I am not 100% sure of whether you could pay the VAT now or not, but it also depends on when the dealers VAT quarter is. If they have a quarter ending February and they deliver in February, then the dealer wouldn't pay the VAT on a December invoice until 7 days after the end of February if they file online. It may not even affect their cash flow at all if the dates worked.
I don't have anything else to offer other than wish him luck.
I think you could pay the VAT now if you asked nicely. It would be good customer service on their part to do it if it's possible.
I also wish the OP the best of luck too. It would be good if he got his car at the price he was originally quoted ASAP
OP
OP
stinkyparp
New member
Spoke to my dealer yesterday, if it comes in 2009 it's 15%. 2010 17.5% end of. spoke to fiat uk today if it comes in 2009 it's 15% 2010 17.5% end of.
I wasn't coming on here to moan about this that or a doner kebab. i put the post on to see if anyone who is in the same position as me, overdue their car and going to lose precious time at christmas for a last minute delivery/ pdi. seeing if they had been offered by their dealer anything different. I could then go back to my dealer or fiat and try again, because £200 is a lot for me to have to pay extra, i even ordered a bydiesel model thinking (quite stupidly) it might come faster as it's a standard model.
I'm sorry if to some i come across as a moaner, but i'm already quite upset i haven't got the car yet, everytime i phone the dealer (only 3 times i add) i'm made to feel like i'm bothering them again and for me the final straw was this vat fiasco and my dealer and fiat making it sound like over £200 was sod all
I think we can all understand how pissed off you must be. I know I would be too. However, there is one small bonus: if your car is registered in January it will be a 2010 model, and therefore worth a bit more come sell-by time. Small consolation I know, but something perhaps.
If it arrives before January they might also register it immediately and then PDI it in January, more thoroughly, if you can wait a few days more that is.
Just a thought. Worth talking to them about I'd say.
If it arrives before January they might also register it immediately and then PDI it in January, more thoroughly, if you can wait a few days more that is.
Just a thought. Worth talking to them about I'd say.
SmoothHound
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I got the ByDiesel......its seriously worth the wait. After a couple of weeks( hell, maybe even a few hours) driving it you will forget all this grief and have a constant smile on your face. This little 500 is a fantastic little car, and personally no car around this price bracket come close to beating it.
Definitely hang in there, whats a few weeks of grief and (possibley a few extra quid) compared to many happy years motoring?
Definitely hang in there, whats a few weeks of grief and (possibley a few extra quid) compared to many happy years motoring?
OP
OP
stinkyparp
New member
Thanks smoothHound, I'm sure it will do just that! Can't say i've seen many of the bydiesel models around, in fact the only one i've seen on the road was the green one, which i must say looked ace.
I can certainly understand your frustration. I think it's a little unfair of them to not allow you to pay the VAT this year because it makes no difference to them really.
OP
OP
stinkyparp
New member
Yes it doesn't make much sense to me, i'd be happy pay the full vat amount now.
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Right, I've done some digging on this. Will happily admit that my prior postings were incorrect, so here goes:
As stated above by another poster the garage can raise a full invoice before 31-Dec and collect and pay (only) the VAT element at 15%, per HMRC guidance, republished by WhatCar here.
However, and it may well be significant in this case, the car must be delivered within six months of order (and cost < £100k, probably less of a concern) and the dealer has to pay the monies to the Revenue on their next VAT return (after collection of the cash) as well. And you can't be related to the dealer.
Another possible loop-hole is for a leased purchase, where HMRC acknowledge that invoice date "...could well be before your customer takes delivery of the vehicle" (here).
All of that being the case, I would definitely go back to the dealer and point them towards that HMRC document, section 3.3 - note though that it is option on the part of the dealer to fiddle about with this -
3.3 Goods or services provided after 1 January 2010
You can also opt to use the rules where you receive a payment or raise a VAT invoice before 1 January 2010 for goods or services you will be providing on or after that date. Under the normal rules you should account for VAT at 15% (but see section 11 about special rules to prevent avoidance for certain deposits or prepayments).
However, under the special rules you may account for VAT at 17.5%, not 15%, on the payment or amount invoiced before 1 January 2010. You may find it more convenient to do this and to issue a VAT invoice for the 17.5% rate in cases where your customer can recover all the VAT you charge them.
Hope that helps
As stated above by another poster the garage can raise a full invoice before 31-Dec and collect and pay (only) the VAT element at 15%, per HMRC guidance, republished by WhatCar here.
However, and it may well be significant in this case, the car must be delivered within six months of order (and cost < £100k, probably less of a concern
) and the dealer has to pay the monies to the Revenue on their next VAT return (after collection of the cash) as well. And you can't be related to the dealer.Another possible loop-hole is for a leased purchase, where HMRC acknowledge that invoice date "...could well be before your customer takes delivery of the vehicle" (here).
All of that being the case, I would definitely go back to the dealer and point them towards that HMRC document, section 3.3 - note though that it is option on the part of the dealer to fiddle about with this -
3.3 Goods or services provided after 1 January 2010
You can also opt to use the rules where you receive a payment or raise a VAT invoice before 1 January 2010 for goods or services you will be providing on or after that date. Under the normal rules you should account for VAT at 15% (but see section 11 about special rules to prevent avoidance for certain deposits or prepayments).
However, under the special rules you may account for VAT at 17.5%, not 15%, on the payment or amount invoiced before 1 January 2010. You may find it more convenient to do this and to issue a VAT invoice for the 17.5% rate in cases where your customer can recover all the VAT you charge them.
Hope that helps
Good post. If the dealer doesn't want to raise an invoice early and take payment for the VAT this year then they're corks and wonkers. I still maintain they shouldn't be out of pocket for the VAT increase but by the same token, neither should you if it's possible for them to invoice you for the VAT this financial year and for you to pay the balance this year.Right, I've done some digging on this. Will happily admit that my prior postings were incorrect, so here goes:
As stated above by another poster the garage can raise a full invoice before 31-Dec and collect and pay (only) the VAT element at 15%, per HMRC guidance, republished by WhatCar here.
However, and it may well be significant in this case, the car must be delivered within six months of order (and cost < £100k, probably less of a concern
Another possible loop-hole is for a leased purchase, where HMRC acknowledge that invoice date "...could well be before your customer takes delivery of the vehicle" (here).
All of that being the case, I would definitely go back to the dealer and point them towards that HMRC document, section 3.3 - note though that it is option on the part of the dealer to fiddle about with this -
3.3 Goods or services provided after 1 January 2010
You can also opt to use the rules where you receive a payment or raise a VAT invoice before 1 January 2010 for goods or services you will be providing on or after that date. Under the normal rules you should account for VAT at 15% (but see section 11 about special rules to prevent avoidance for certain deposits or prepayments).
However, under the special rules you may account for VAT at 17.5%, not 15%, on the payment or amount invoiced before 1 January 2010. You may find it more convenient to do this and to issue a VAT invoice for the 17.5% rate in cases where your customer can recover all the VAT you charge them.
Hope that helps
OP
OP
stinkyparp
New member
Thanks for that, had found and read this before i spoke to the dealer, which made no difference. they say if it comes in january it has to be invoiced in january. Still can't fathom that one myself, i go back to the spare parts analogy order in dec pay 15% if it goes onto back order and arrives 2010 will i have to pay 2.5% more? i seriously doubt that as i've already payed in full.
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To be fair it's probably worth noting that the VAT rate change is a right pain the preverbial for any business, so any form of complication which they don't need to do would almost certainly be resisted, which is basically where I was coming from in my ealier posts.
too right, VAT changes are a right pain, and anything that complicates invoicing really isn't welcomed by a business. It's probably all done on a system, and if the system is like ours, anything you have to do out of the ordinary involves huge amounts of effort and it will always go wrong and involve even more effort. By the time everyone has chipped in to sort the mess out it's cost the business a lot more that you've saved.
OP
OP
stinkyparp
New member
How would fiat any dealer expect to stay in business if everything was an effort? Bit of luck thet have got such a popular car!
He's got a point though.
