Technical Transmission noise Panda 1.2 Dynamic , help!!

[somyunguy]

Hey Guys, our little Panda is sounding a bit unwell in the gearbox dept. She has 128k on her , still original clutch which has developed a fair shudder , dependent on who's driving, does'nt trouble me but the wifey cannot pull away cleanly without the shudder. This not being the issue.
Have noticed of late that on moving off , there is a distinct rumbling sound emanating from the drive train , sounds like a dry brinelled bearing, most notably in 1st through 3rd , but goes quiet when she's not under load and not so noticeable at road going speed in 4th and 5th.
As to diagnosis , i went out and got some specd transmission oil so i could drain the box and check , (A) if there was indeed oil in the box - she has no leaks but I live in South Africa and there are some here, that profess to be mechanics that ain't a mech ass , even in the dealerships!! And it would not have surprised me to find little to no oil in the box. - no such luck.
(B) to check if there was any metallic detritus in the drained oil. Absolutely nothing , completely clean!
So now i'm wondering , do i have an inner joint problem rearing it's ugly head , ie , the bearings on the tripod are dry? Or brinelled , there are no CV Joint boot leaks , indeed , we have never had any break or leak from new.
OR , could it be the clutch that's going T's up in that the release bearing is being loaded under load because of crankshaft end float perhaps? I would not have thought so but I have seen some pretty worn crank shims allow a lot of crank travel before today!
Has anyone come across this issue before? Thought please?

 

[koalar]

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Have noticed of late that on moving off , there is a distinct rumbling sound emanating from the drive train , sounds like a dry brinelled bearing, most notably in 1st through 3rd , but goes quiet when she's not under load and not so noticeable at road going speed in 4th and 5th.

unfortunately at least one gearbox bearing has gone, Fingers crossed just the input

I suspect when the gearbox is out, you will be able to wiggle the input shaft which will also be the main reason for the judder

engine mounts will tend to get destroyed if left to long

what's it like on the inside of the inside of the bellhousing. there's in inspection window at the top. There maybe a coolant pipe that needs to moves out of the way

 

[somyunguy]

unfortunately at least one gearbox bearing has gone, Fingers crossed just the input

I suspect when the gearbox is out, you will be able to wiggle the input shaft which will also be the main reason for the judder

engine mounts will tend to get destroyed if left to long

what's it like on the inside of the inside of the bellhousing. there's in inspection window at the top. There maybe a coolant pipe that needs to moves out of the way

I have'nt checked inside the bellhousing as yet , Still very early days, I will have a look. If it's a bearing , then it's probably worth replacing all , i don't do this just replace what's necc thing , sooner rather than later , it'll bite you in the ass.
What I find strange though is , there is absolutely no metallic content in the drained oil , even a brinelled bearing tends to give off fine particulate ,even if only in very tiny quantities. The oil that came out was as clean as the oil i put in. Even the viscosity did'nt seem like it had deteriorated to any great degree.
Probably time for new wheel bearings , tie rods ,ball joints and shocks , if the box has to come out. Oh and clutch kit of course!
She is 15 yrs old but what an amazing little car! Touch wood ,even the aircon still blows as cold as the day she left the factory!

 

[DaveMcT]

My 100HP developed a clutch slip under power. Classic oil contamination. I managed to get look inside the bell housing with an endoscope camera - nothing nasty found. When opened up, the interior did not look or even feel oily, though the smell of gearbox oil pointed to what had happened. New clutch, new seal and all is going nasty well again. Hopefully.

 

[koalar]

I have'nt checked inside the bellhousing as yet ,

with the engine off. if you put your finger through and its oily, its 90% sure the input bearing and seal has gone

I will have a look. If it's a bearing , then it's probably worth replacing all ,

input bearing not too bad to change yourself, its normally the only one that goes, but the rest need a hydraulic press

What I find strange though is , there is absolutely no metallic content in the drained oil ,

normally it's the plastic cage that goes. Ball bearings aren't equally spaced allowing movement and pitting. There will not be any metal in the oil except bass as there a big magnet installed to capture most

 

[A3jeroen]

How are the driveshafts (especially the longer right side)?

gr J

 

[koalar]

How are the driveshafts (especially the longer right side)?

gr J

am I missing something I probably have

worse in two out of the five gears would make me fairly confident the problem lay inside the gearbox

"1st and 3rd"

of course I could be wrong

 

[somyunguy]

How are the driveshafts (especially the longer right side)?

gr J

Can't say as yet. Never had any boot breaks or drive shaft issues , i do check them pertodically, will have a look. Thanks.

am I missing something I probably have

worse in two out of the five gears would make me fairly confident the problem lay inside the gearbox

"1st and 3rd"

of course I could be wrong

Hard to say , one hears the noise in the cabin but it's more noticeable when someone else drives out the gate with her. Will have to make a more concerted effort to hear exactly what is happening. Hoping it's not a major bearing faliure , she still shifts precisely and smoothly. I'm suspicious of the cv's because of the tripod design , i have heard of them breaking though sod knows how?? She seems quiet under no load which is why I'm kinda leaning that way.

 

[somyunguy]

with the engine off. if you put your finger through and its oily, its 90% sure the input bearing and seal has gone

input bearing not too bad to change yourself, its normally the only one that goes, but the rest need a hydraulic press

normally it's the plastic cage that goes. Ball bearings aren't equally spaced allowing movement and pitting. There will not be any metal in the oil except bass as there a big magnet installed to capture most

I suspect there would likely be a magnet but i would have expected it to be on the drain plug proper. No signs of plastic though they may not have actually let go, just broken away on 1 side. I have seen some pretty weird stuff before today so would'nt surprise me!

 

[somyunguy]

I suspect there would likely be a magnet but i would have expected it to be on the drain plug proper. No signs of plastic though they may not have actually let go, just broken away on 1 side. I have seen some pretty weird stuff before today so would'nt surprise me!

Press is not an issue , have same.

 

[koalar]

I suspect there would likely be a magnet but i would have expected it to be on the drain plug proper. No signs of plastic though they may not have actually let go, just broken away on 1 side. I have seen some pretty weird stuff before today so would'nt surprise me!

number 5. Stupid you can't get to it easily

21207/00 - TRANSMISSION AND DIFFERENTIAL UNIT, CASING AND COVERS

FIAT NUOVA PANDA (2003-2009)

eper.fiatforum.com

strange how the mind plays tricks. Just been inside a gearbox and would gave put money on the magnet being in the diff housing.


no matter, its here

 

[rmjbn1]

No signs of plastic though they may not have actually let go, just broken away on 1 side.

The plastic cage of my input shaft bearing had melted away, so I wouldn't expect to find any plastic detritus in the transmission oil.

The input shaft bearing seems quite a common failure on these boxes. Maybe limited lifespan by design or overheating if the oil has dropped low?

When it fails it causes play in the shaft, which can get quite loud - my car was noticeably quieter after changing the bearing.

The noise should go away if you depress the clutch as the shaft stops turning.

Play in the shaft warps the seal, allowing oil to leak into the bell housing.

If I was to do a clutch on one of these boxes again, I would replace the input shaft bearing and seal as a matter of course.

Here's my collapsed input shaft bearing with pitted races at just over 100k miles, and the bell housing inspection hole:

 

[somyunguy]

The plastic cage of my input shaft bearing had melted away, so I wouldn't expect to find any plastic detritus in the transmission oil.

The input shaft bearing seems quite a common failure on these boxes. Maybe limited lifespan by design or overheating if the oil has dropped low?

When it fails it causes play in the shaft, which can get quite loud - my car was noticeably quieter after changing the bearing.

with the engine off. if you put your finger through and its oily, its 90% sure the input bearing and seal has gone

input bearing not too bad to change yourself, its normally the only one that goes, but the rest need a hydraulic press

normally it's the plastic cage that goes. Ball bearings aren't equally spaced allowing movement and pitting. There will not be any metal in the oil except bass as there a big magnet installed to capture most

am I missing something I probably have

worse in two out of the five gears would make me fairly confident the problem lay inside the gearbox

"1st and 3rd"

of course I could be wrong

The noise should go away if you depress the clutch as the shaft stops turning.

Hey Bud , thanks for the images and the input , this noise is only present on the move , she's completely quiet at standstill.

Play in the shaft warps the seal, allowing oil to leak into the bell housing.

If I was to do a clutch on one of these boxes again, I would replace the input shaft bearing and seal as a matter of course.

Here's my collapsed input shaft bearing with pitted races at just over 100k miles, and the bell housing inspection hole:

 

[somyunguy]

Hey Bud! Thanks for the input and the images!
This noise is only on the move , at standstill she is completely quiet , Oil level came out exactly as it went in , and to my knowledge never been topped up.
I have had her from new , and she has until recently always been stealership serviced. Till the Mercedes agents took over Fiat I was quiet happy. Never again!
It had not occurred to me that the plastic cage may have melted. Makes perfect sense now!

I guess I'll have to go lie on my back for around 2 weeks - I'm 65 , 2 spinal ops and both shoulders so i'll have to take it slowly.

Do you perchance have a part # for a better part , SKF or Fag being preferred , or is it like Yamaha , specially sized bearings you can't get anywhere but the agent!?

100k miles Wow!! Mines only 0n 128k km! But they are stunning little vehicles , maybe there's better in the same class but I have no desire to find out!
My DIL has a Chevy Spark and it's like driving a sardine can compared to a Merc! That solid "Clunk" when you close a door - you know what I mean!

 

[koalar]

The bearing is a standard size

The original is specialised. It has a GRP cage with a reinforcing ring on one side. I don’t know why

It suppled with oil as long as the oil level is correct

People have replaced it with a standard open metal cage bearing which works well

Does yours go quiet if you press the clutch pedal down while it’s making the noise ?

 

[rmjbn1]

This noise is only on the move , at standstill she is completely quiet

Do you perchance have a part # for a better part , SKF or Fag being preferred , or is it like Yamaha , specially sized bearings you can't get anywhere but the agent!?

Hmm, there might be something else going on with your car then - a worn input shaft bearing would rattle in neutral.

Sounds like you're due a new clutch, so I would consider replacing the input shaft bearing and seal anyway, but might not be causing the noise you're hearing.

I used a standard SKF Explorer 6204 C3 bearing, more here:https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/clutch-slip-2004-panda-1-2.483277/#post-4587726
@koalar managed to source the original spec I think?
Input shaft seal FIAT part number 40004670

Here's an excellent guide to replacing the input shaft bearing and seal

 

[koalar]

posts above are all correct. Sorry for the long ass post. I think were need a recap

yes I found a correct bearing for a reasonable price. New old stock from Germany

We started of with a noise only in 1st and 3rd. This can only be the gearbox on further testing does this still stand

juddering is normal with an input shaft bearing, worse if you release the clutch pedal slowly. If there is that much movement that its juddering there should be oil on the inside of the bellhousing

if the cage has gone completely then they rattle in neutral clutch pedal up, and go quiet with the clutch pedal down

clutch throw out bearing can be very similar. But there will almost certainly be a point where it gets worse as you slowly press the pedal

the CV joints are turning quite slowly, especially at 20-30 mph. They tend to make a knocking, thumping type noise

brake noise is very common and cheap and easy to fix. Scraping, scratch type sound. Should be the same in all gears and only when the car is moving. This can be more noticeable from outside the car or if the windows are down. while moving and its making the noise it will instantly go if you touch the brake pedal.

 

[DaveMcT]

Inner CV joints knock and thump. Outers will click on full steering lock.

By the way, Hondas Jazz is also prone to gearbox input bearing failure. Same symptoms.

 

[somyunguy]

So took our Panda to our local Alfa /Fiat guy, at 65 with 2 spinal ops and constant pain I was'nt keen on crawling around on the garage floor.
This is what he found so far.

Not too bad considering , my only worry is - all all the balls there??? Will have to go to the garridge and count the ball content in one.

 

[koalar]

The original bearing in the gearboxes I have seen have 7 ball bearings with a glass reinforced polyamide (plastic) cage.

it’s worth doing the two differential and the input seals at the same time.