Technical Starter Motor woes

[koalar]

Call me silly but is battery fully charged and not faulty. Brrr noise can be solenoid operating , which then causes battery voltage drop, which causes solenoid to stop working, which causes battery voltage to go up, which causes solenoid to operate, which causes battery voltage to drop etc etc etc

not silly

its hard to describe sounds. would be better if we could hear it

 

[Timpanda7]

I took out all 4 spark plugs and the starter is turning over the motor and the belt is moving around as it should but I can tell after 20 seconds the power is draining from the battery. If I put the spark plugs back in then I can quite confidently say the starter will not work again... ?????

Tim

 

[jackwhoo]

I took out all 4 spark plugs and the starter is turning over the motor and the belt is moving around as it should but I can tell after 20 seconds the power is draining from the battery. If I put the spark plugs back in then I can quite confidently say the starter will not work again... ?????

Tim

Good Lord 15mins on charge do you have tesla charger ?
12hour charge minimum for you.

 

[Timpanda7]

not silly

its hard to describe sounds. would be better if we could hear it

My mums little Hyundai's starter motors is zippy (fast) like a cake mixer but this starter is a slow sound like a car has an almost dead battery, then dies... That is the sound.

 

[jackwhoo]

Then put plugs back in and see what happens.
Measure voltage at battery while starter is trying to turn engine if it drops below 10.5 volts you have a battery problem , if battery fully charged

 

[Timpanda7]

Good Lord 15mins on charge do you have tesla charger ?
12hour charge minimum for you.

I usually do charge over night but was anxious to see if the starter would turn over with the spark plugs removed... Much more optimistic now it is turning over.

Yet to work out (with the kind and appreciated help of this forum) why it does not turn over with the compression from the spark plugs being in.


Tim

 

[koalar]

My mums little Hyundai's starter motors is zippy (fast) like a cake mixer but this starter is a slow sound like a car has an almost dead battery, then dies... That is the sound.

sounds like turning slowly then dies


which sounds very like a battery fault


usually it finishes with a rapid clicking noise


Petrol gauge and or rev counter goes mad is also a Good indication the battery is faulty


if you don't have a volt meter / multi meter you can switch the headlights on for 10 minuets. The observed brightness shouldn't dim over 10 minuets

 

[DaveMcT]

Simple test. Does it work with jump leads?

Disconnect the suspect car battery to rule out internal shorts dropping the voltage.

 

[Timpanda7]

Simple test. Does it work with jump leads?

Disconnect the suspect car battery to rule out internal shorts dropping the voltage.

Hi Dave, no it doesn't start with jumper leads and this battery is only weeks old.

It must be a weak starter motor regardless that it seems to be working ok.

Need to ask a few mates to come and push me out of the gravel driveway and up the road to see whether it will clutch start (bump start). Keeping social distancing of course...


If it starts by a push then I/we can confidently say it is the starter motor?

 

[DaveMcT]

It could be a faulty battery.

Check using jump leads with the battery disconnected that avoids a shorted cell from dropping the voltage. Switch of engine before unclipping the jump leads.

New motor is about £50.

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi Dave, no it doesn't start with jumper leads and this battery is only weeks old.

It must be a weak starter motor regardless that it seems to be working ok.

Need to ask a few mates to come and push me out of the gravel driveway and up the road to see whether it will clutch start (bump start). Keeping social distancing of course...


If it starts by a push then I/we can confidently say it is the starter motor?

No , it could be a faulty new battery
Put jump leads from a car with a known good battery to your car and try.

Ah I went back to beginning of thread and see you are not original poster.

If with jump leads you still get same noise/problem with starter then yes try a decent replacement starter.
Good luck

 

[Timpanda7]

No , it could be a faulty new battery
Put jump leads from a car with a known good battery to your car and try.

If with jump leads you still get same noise/problem with starter then yes try a decent replacement starter.
Good luck

Thank you, yes have done this and there is still the same problem, so quite confident it is a dud starter motor.

Looked on the internet and not sure how much were expected to spend and where from, many refer me to EBAY but not confident about buying there. I live on Guernsey Island and the few local auto shops will likely over charge then possibly buy from the internet themselves...


Any pointers regarding a good online site and the brand of starter would be helpful... thank you!

 

[jackwhoo]

Try and find someone on island who can refurbish your starter.there must be a demand from agriculture etc.


EBay is fine if you pay using PayPal there is a degree of buyer protection- look into it.

Mrauto have a French operation and UK operation are not always cheapest but they are ok.

 

[DaveMcT]

eBay is fine just use a proper computer and browser to check the seller address details.

I bought a reconditioned starter from a reputable supplier for my bike (1200 twin = hard on starters) A year later and out of warranty the starter clutch failed. A used replacement from a German seller cost me under £50 delivered and worked better than the (allegedly) remanufactured starter.

Here's one to try, based in Cannock, Staffs. I cannot vouch for them personally but they seem to know what they are selling.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Starter-...377643&hash=item5b51e394d6:g:4eEAAOSwC~9cPLKt

Shop 4 Parts are worth a phone call. Their website does not cover everything. They can be very good on price but they also sell OEM which can be silly money prices.

 

[varesecrazy]

Thank you, yes have done this and there is still the same problem, so quite confident it is a dud starter motor.

Looked on the internet and not sure how much were expected to spend and where from, many refer me to EBAY but not confident about buying there. I live on Guernsey Island and the few local auto shops will likely over charge then possibly buy from the internet themselves...


Any pointers regarding a good online site and the brand of starter would be helpful... thank you!

Hi

This has certainly been a challenge

2 points I think I should raise..

1. There are cases of a seizing alternator giving odd starting issues .. but a 10 minute job on a panda to check

2. why not strip the starter..?

Brushes generate dust.. which gums up the innards of the starter..

On my older cars I used to strip it down to restore proper service.. not all that complex.. could just need £10 brushes..
Or just a 'flush out'

Old skool haynes manual told you how to actually fix stuff rather than just buy a replacement

 

[Timpanda7]

Hi

This has certainly been a challenge

2 points I think I should raise..

1. There are cases of a seizing alternator giving odd starting issues .. but a 10 minute job on a panda to check

2. why not strip the starter..?

Brushes generate dust.. which gums up the innards of the starter..

On my older cars I used to strip it down to restore proper service.. not all that complex.. could just need £10 brushes..
Or just a 'flush out'

Old skool haynes manual told you how to actually fix stuff rather than just buy a replacement

Hi,


I took the starter apart 2 weeks ago and the brushes were good and plentiful, I cleaned/serviced the parts carefully as described in a number of YouTube videos. It did not make any difference, it worked fine but still lacked power to turn the motor over with the spark plugs in.


I ordered a new starter motor (£97) from a local auto shop and was told it would arrive tomorrow or Monday. (I live on Guernsey Island).


I agree, if it is not the starter it is likely the generator. My mate said turn the engine on and check if the voltage goes up a volt or 2 on my multimeter.


Thanks for the comment, all advice appreciated.


Tim

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,

I agree, if it is not the starter it is likely the generator. My mate said turn the engine on and check if the voltage goes up a volt or 2 on my multimeter.

Thanks for the comment, all advice appreciated.

Tim

Hi Tim.

You are very welcome

The step from 12 volts to 14volts is indeed the charge from the alternator

I was hinting at a partially seized alternator.. 'stiffly rotating..'

Like you are trying to crank 2 x panda engines


To test.. undo the 3 bolts on crank pulley
Slip off the belt.. refit pulley..(aligning the small pip) crank engine..

Our panda alternator was loud for 8 of its 15 years.. but never needed 'work'.. still got the replacement somewhere..

 

[Timpanda7]

Hi Tim.

To test.. undo the 3 bolts on crank pulley
Slip off the belt.. refit pulley..(aligning the small pip) crank engine..

Our panda alternator was loud for 8 of its 15 years.. but never needed 'work'.. still got the replacement somewhere..

Ok, now I will have to discover how to do this as well, for me that area under this little car is very hard to get to. I just have a secure concrete block in place.

Would I have to take the wheel off to get to that pulley bolt area? Is there a chance I am going to mess up an alignment?

As you can see I am keen and teachable but ignorant to fixing cars as well as some others.

I open to the point that you might be right about the generator/alternator.

Thank you

Tim

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

The front wheel is obscuring a good view.. but access is ok with it still there
(Just a plastic cover in the way..)

Once the belt is removed from pulley..
You can spin the alternator by hand.. then turn it slowly..feeling for a notychness..

Should be all smooth and free spinning..
I find this simpler than attempting to slacken and retension the belt in a conventional 'undo the alternator' way

This keeps the tension 'as set'

The pulley is held on with 3 bolts..and there is a very small hole in 1 position

This lines up with a tiny pin

Thats your alignment

Images all over the forum.. FIRE engine been around for decades

'Heres one I prepared earlier..'
https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-guides/437184-panda-8-valve-cambelt-change.html?437184=#post4158423

 

[DaveMcT]

I suggested ages ago that you should disconnect the existing battery then use jump leads to connect another battery to your Panda's battery leads. That tests the starter etc without the load of a battery with shorted cells.