Technical Starter Motor Noise After Car Has Started?

[dac69er]

took the starter motor off today.

it was all gummed up with the grease it was assembled with. just used some wd40 to clean it all up and its all sorted now.

i do wish i had done it in place without disconnecting though as the electrical connection stud sheared due to the nut being seized on
had to drill the stud out and fit a smaller 6mm stud. bit of a ballache, but wasn't too bad. easier than doing it in the snow!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Ooh, think of all that axial load on the crankshaft with no oil pressure

One of my own wee favorite hobby horses. It almost makes me cry that my new Ibiza won't start unless you depress the clutch pedal! I've found an American description of how to disable (by wiring toggle a switch in parallel) the clutch pedal switch on US vehicles. Don't know if I'm brave enough to try it. Maybe when she's a bit older and I don't feel so precious!

 

[brooking147]

more like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21YWX-U_WRM ??

Sorry, just seen this.

Not like that video, more metallic sounding. I instantly though belt in the video. My sound I believe is the starter.

 

[brooking147]

took the starter motor off today.

it was all gummed up with the grease it was assembled with. just used some wd40 to clean it all up and its all sorted now.

i do wish i had done it in place without disconnecting though as the electrical connection stud sheared due to the nut being seized on
had to drill the stud out and fit a smaller 6mm stud. bit of a ballache, but wasn't too bad. easier than doing it in the snow!

Thanks for posting that.

I think I might have the same problem.

Is it possible to access the starter motor accessible in situ to clean and lube rather than taking it off completely then?

 

[koalar]

Thanks for posting that.

I think I might have the same problem.

Is it possible to access the starter motor accessible in situ to clean and lube rather than taking it off completely then?

nope

it sealed to keep dirt out.

Bendix is dry to keep the dust from sticking to it

they can gum up and need cleaning with a solvent and drying

but has to be removed

if its covered in oil there must be a leak or someone's been there before


here's one Thats done 180 000 miles

 

[brooking147]

OK, thanks for that.

At least I know what I'm taking on now.


Mine has been ok for a few days now and only seems to play up every once in a while.
I have not had the car long and wondered whether I could put this down to lack of use and it might get better with regular use? I will monitor over the next week or so, then go from there.

 

[dac69er]

OK, thanks for that.

At least I know what I'm taking on now.


Mine has been ok for a few days now and only seems to play up every once in a while.
I have not had the car long and wondered whether I could put this down to lack of use and it might get better with regular use? I will monitor over the next week or so, then go from there.

if you dont undo the electrical connection, you can simply undo the 2 bolts that hold it on, pull the starter out, spray a little wd40 in the position shown below and that should see you through the winter.
its a little more fiddly than completely removing, but saves risking an electrical connection issue like i had!

if you took it back to the garage you got it from, i am sure they will do that for you if you dont fancy doing it yourself.

 

[brooking147]

Thanks for that. I will give it a go.

 

[brooking147]

more like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21YWX-U_WRM ??

Actually this is it, managed to record it this morning.

Hope the video sound works...

https://youtu.be/watch?v=Cj9nJfazEsQ

 

[koalar]

Actually this is it, managed to record it this morning.

Hope the video sound works...

https://youtu.be/watch?v=Cj9nJfazEsQ

works for me


does sound more like a squeak / screech rather than metallic clunk

I would start with the auxiliary belt. If you don't have aircon there isn't a tensioner. Being fixed it does slacken over time. I have to tighten mine every year or so. Probably depends on belt brand is used as I have never adjusted the belt on my other car and that does more short journeys.

Back to the first couple of posts on this thread.

its also worth checking the belt for cracks. This video has an example of a belt cracking.

 

[dac69er]

Actually this is it, managed to record it this morning.

Hope the video sound works...

https://youtu.be/watch?v=Cj9nJfazEsQ

comes up video not available?

works with koalars repost.

sounds exactly like the starter motor. same as my girlfriends 100hp.
the bendix isnt retracting quick enough due to being gummed up so it is slightly catching the ring gear on the flyhweel. is it any better once the car is fully warmed up?

 

[HP]

Actually this is it, managed to record it this morning.

Hope the video sound works...

https://youtu.be/watch?v=Cj9nJfazEsQ

That's the starter motor bearings, not the dog sticking in or anything else. It won't fail suddenly. I ran one car for seven years like this, when it was apart for something else I put a little grease in the bearings (not the dog/bendix - bad idea) and it stopped the noise for about 6 months. There were no marks or swarf on the flywheel or gears from dragging. It may get gradually worse over time, it might not.

 

[brooking147]

That's the starter motor bearings, not the dog sticking in or anything else. It won't fail suddenly. I ran one car for seven years like this, when it was apart for something else I put a little grease in the bearings (not the dog/bendix - bad idea) and it stopped the noise for about 6 months. There were no marks or swarf on the flywheel or gears from dragging. It may get gradually worse over time, it might not.

Thanks. No one has mentioned the thought that it might be starter bearings previously. I know I had a very similar issue with a previous car (not Panda) which was solved during a service when the garage said they took the starter out and "lubricated it". I had assumed it was the bendix that has been raised here but makes sense if it was bearings too.

 

[brooking147]

comes up video not available?

works with koalars repost.

sounds exactly like the starter motor. same as my girlfriends 100hp.
the bendix isnt retracting quick enough due to being gummed up so it is slightly catching the ring gear on the flyhweel. is it any better once the car is fully warmed up?

I have not had the issue at all when starting from warm, only ever first start from cold.

 

[koalar]

I have not had the issue at all when starting from warm, only ever first start from cold.

Doesn't really help that much as all three "suggestions" will be worse from cold.

as per first post. Slipping the belt off. Only takes a few minuets would at least eliminate the belt and alternator bearing. If the noise is still there the only option is to take the starter motor off. Not difficult but a bit fiddly

 

[HP]

It's not a belt, or meteors, or Santa. It's just the bearings. Only doing it on the first start from cold is a characteristic.

 

[dac69er]

It's not a belt, or meteors, or Santa. It's just the bearings. Only doing it on the first start from cold is a characteristic.

mine sounded the same as the OP and it was not the bearings, it was just the bendix sticking.

i bench tested it when it was out and you could see the issue. there was no sound from the bearings.


a quick clean and squirt of wd40 and it was fine.


i think we are in agreement that it is the starter motor, and nothing else. not to say the OP's issue isnt the bearings, but for the sake of a quick squirt of wd40, its worth a try.

 

[HP]

You do realise that by spraying WD40 in you've lubricated the end bearing?


If it was a sticking starter dog, it won't sound like that - it'll grind, not make a sound that 'slows down'.


As previously mentioned, spraying lube into there is a bad idea as well as clutch dust can easily clag up and genuinely cause the dog to stick.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thought I'd, humbly, make my contribution to this. I completely agree it'a a starter motor problem. In my experience the starter pinion on most pre-engaged starters incorporates a one way "sprag" clutch mechanism so that the armature can't be destroyed by over speeding. If we think about that for a minute. If the pinion is staying in mesh with the flywheel ring gear, most often caused by clutch dust gumming up the solenoid internals rather than the shaft on which the pinion slides (although that can happen too) you would hear a steady "in mesh" noise. I've heard that one before and the ones I've heard haven't really sounded like this. The other possibility mentioned is that it's something to do with the armature bearings - which are usually plain bushes, not ball races so respond, for a while anyway, to being lubed with a light oil - As you will know, as soon as you release the ignition key the starter current is switched off so the armature will start to slow down. This scenario would seem to fit your noise as it sounds like it's slowing down. It will do this even if the pinion is being "lazy" and briefly remaining in mesh with the ring gear. Why? Because the "sprag" (one way) clutch on the pinion will slip and allow the armature to slow down.

So. I think I have to agree with HP. It's most likely a dry armature bush. If you do take the motor out please disconnect the battery first. (radio code should be "remembered" by body module? it was by mine on our 2010 Eco Dynamic anyway) The cables can produce some very impressive fireworks if you don't and short out to the body anywhere. Whilst you've got it out see if there is any sideways play in the bushing at the pinion end. This is common as a starter ages as there is a considerable side force being experienced which wears the bush. The problem is that there is very very little clearance between the armature and field magnets inside the motor so it only takes a wee bit of sideways movement on this end bush to allow the armature to rub against the field magnets. It's insidious because when you spin the armature by hand it seems to spin easily. It's only when the starting load is applied and the pinion tries to move sideways that it really happens. It can substantially slow speed of rotation and significantly rob it of power. This symptom (slow rotation) can be easily mistaken for a poorly charged battery.

If I was you I'd be "biting the bullet" and taking the starter out all together so I could have a really good look at it. Again, sorry if this sounds a bit depressing, but with starter motors which live a rough old life, once you get them on the bench and really look at them, it's often the case that a new one is the best solution. Used to be a time when you could buy new brushes, get the commutator skimmed for peanuts, clean up the armature spindles with some fine emery cloth, and fit new bushes (after soaking over night in a light machine oil because they were sintered and could absorb the oil). Even if you had to buy a new pinion it wouldn't have "broken the bank". The "rot" seemed to set in when the early Jap stuff started doing exchange units only and before long everyone else seemed to follow on. Mind you it was only ever worth doing if you weren't paying someones labour!

 

[dac69er]

You do realise that by spraying WD40 in you've lubricated the end bearing?


If it was a sticking starter dog, it won't sound like that - it'll grind, not make a sound that 'slows down'.


As previously mentioned, spraying lube into there is a bad idea as well as clutch dust can easily clag up and genuinely cause the dog to stick.

as mentioned, i bench tested the unit before and after.

before, there was no odd sounds, but you could see the dog was not returning fully after running the starter.

i then sprayed wd40 on it and it then returned fully

the dog was already sticking, so there was nothing lost by doing this!

wd40 is light enough not to cause any sticking. its far better than the grease that fiat assembled it with in the first instance as this is what caused the sticking in the first place.