Technical Shell V Power

[jrkitching]

I never said they weren't. But a 20% increase in economy from a slightly higher octane fuel? nah.....

That's the only evidence I've ever seen that has shown anything more than a bees dick (official scale of measurement) of difference between 95 and 98/99 octane fuel.

You're correct in saying the change in octane rating won't in itself make much difference to economy. However, there's more to these fuels than just octane rating - they are also purported to have a superior additive pack and if a car were already running with clogged injectors & fouled sensors then I suppose the detergent properties of the new fuel could conceivably clean it up enough to make that kind of a difference.

To see a 20% improvement, I'd suspect the car were initially running in some sort of compromised way which the new fuel somehow managed to rectify - there's no way I can believe you'd get that from the octane increase alone.

 

[306maxi]

You're correct in saying the change in octane rating won't in itself make much difference to economy. However, there's more to these fuels than just octane rating - they are also purported to have a superior additive pack and if a car were already running with clogged injectors & fouled sensors then I suppose the detergent properties of the new fuel could conceivably clean it up enough to make that kind of a difference.

To see a 20% improvement, I'd suspect the car were initially running in some sort of compromised way which the new fuel somehow managed to rectify - there's no way I can believe you'd get that from the octane increase alone.

Well EVO did a test with V-Power a few years back and whilst it did show some improvements it was nothing like the difference suggested in the article Rob linked to. I'm very mucha believer in better fuels, I simply don't feel that it achieves anything to overstate the benefits

 

[wigit]

if you do a search on Thorney Motorsport you will also realise they are sponsored by Momentum, call me a sceptic, in reality John Thorne is a nice guy, reasonably handy behind the wheel having driven my car around castle combe last year but boy does he like the sound of his own voice

i've had a fair bit of experience over the last couple of years with the 95/97 debate through close relationships with tuning companies and a couple of race teams, i'm no mechanical guru but have had experience which is worth sharing

generally your cars performance is optimised for the fuel thats stated on your fuel filler tank, whilst your car can run higher octane fuel, the 'timing' may not allow the benefits in terms of additional performance, similarly the boys who chuck octane booster in 9 times out of 10 are throwing their money away

currently both of our cars are remapped, when they came out the factory one was meant to have a diet of 95 the other 97.

both run switchable maps which means i can select between 95/97/100+, each of these maps are optimised for that fuel, i was invovled with a dyno session with said tuner and the car was on V Power, the figures were intersting 95 (255bhp), 97 (266bhp), 100+ (275bhp all be it worst curves ever and lots of timing pull), the car still runs on 97, if i can't find decent fuel i swtich to 95 (i have a switch that plugs into obd port) and if i want to run 100+ i add some millers cvl turbo into the mix

both cars run on a diet of V Power or Momentum (which i really rate) and i reckon i achieve 5-10% better than when i used to run on 95

i won't be running the 500 on V Power or Momentum, that said it won't be running on a stock diet of supermarket 95 either but will be shopping at Shell or BP

 

[306maxi]

if you do a search on Thorney Motorsport you will also realise they are sponsored by Momentum, call me a sceptic, in reality John Thorne is a nice guy, reasonably handy behind the wheel having driven my car around castle combe last year but boy does he like the sound of his own voice

i've had a fair bit of experience over the last couple of years with the 95/97 debate through close relationships with tuning companies and a couple of race teams, i'm no mechanical guru but have had experience which is worth sharing

generally your cars performance is optimised for the fuel thats stated on your fuel filler tank, whilst your car can run higher octane fuel, the 'timing' may not allow the benefits in terms of additional performance, similarly the boys who chuck octane booster in 9 times out of 10 are throwing their money away

currently both of our cars are remapped, when they came out the factory one was meant to have a diet of 95 the other 97.

both run switchable maps which means i can select between 95/97/100+, each of these maps are optimised for that fuel, i was invovled with a dyno session with said tuner and the car was on V Power, the figures were intersting 95 (255bhp), 97 (266bhp), 100+ (275bhp all be it worst curves ever and lots of timing pull), the car still runs on 97, if i can't find decent fuel i swtich to 95 (i have a switch that plugs into obd port) and if i want to run 100+ i add some millers cvl turbo into the mix

both cars run on a diet of V Power or Momentum (which i really rate) and i reckon i achieve 5-10% better than when i used to run on 95

i won't be running the 500 on V Power or Momentum, that said it won't be running on a stock diet of supermarket 95 either but will be shopping at Shell or BP

I usually run a tank or two of V Power or BP Ultimate through every once in a while for the benefits you get with the better detergents and so on, but I think it's pointless to run a 1.2 or 1.4 on high octane fuel.

 

[pearce_jj]

Some good write-up on wikipedia on octane ratings: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating"]Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Gas_Station_Pump_Five_Octane_Ratings.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Gas_Station_Pump_Five_Octane_Ratings.jpg/280px-Gas_Station_Pump_Five_Octane_Ratings.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/0/0f/Gas_Station_Pump_Five_Octane_Ratings.jpg/280px-Gas_Station_Pump_Five_Octane_Ratings.jpg[/ame]

From that,

The power output of an engine depends in part on the energy density of its fuel, but similar fuels with different octane ratings have similar density. Because switching to a higher octane fuel does not add more hydrocarbon content or oxygen, the engine cannot produce more power.

However, burning fuel with a lower octane rating than required by the engine often reduces power output and efficiency... If the engine begins to detonate, that reduces power and efficiency.... Many modern car engines feature a knock sensor – a small piezoelectric microphone which detects knock, and then sends a signal to the engine control unit to retard the ignition timing. Retarding the ignition timing reduces the tendency to detonate, but also reduces power output and fuel efficiency.

So it seems to me that if it says 95 on the label, using under 95 may impact efficiency, but using over 95 can't really do anything.

 

[jrkitching]

I usually run a tank or two of V Power or BP Ultimate through every once in a while for the benefits you get with the better detergents and so on, but I think it's pointless to run a 1.2 or 1.4 on high octane fuel.

I prefer to fill up with branded fuel, rather than just using the supermarket - particularly as there's usually no price difference hereabouts.

The cleansing additives in Vpower/Ultimate are supposedly better, but you could just spend the difference on a bottle of your own preferred injector cleaner instead. Would certainly be the first thing I'd try if I had any reason to suspect any problems in that department.

I agree it's otherwise pointless to run a 1.2 on high octane fuel.

 

[306maxi]

I prefer to fill up with branded fuel, rather than just using the supermarket - particularly as there's usually no price difference hereabouts.

Agreed. My main reason for doing so is the fact that most of the fuel scares where people have had their engines damaged have been supermarket petrol stations.

 

[RobinPJ]

Agreed. My main reason for doing so is the fact that most of the fuel scares where people have had their engines damaged have been supermarket petrol stations.

How often does it happen then? I thought the one a couple of years ago referred to earleir in this thread was a "one off". Is it actually quite a common event?

 

[306maxi]

How often does it happen then? I thought the one a couple of years ago referred to earleir in this thread was a "one off". Is it actually quite a common event?

Well a few years ago the wifes Escort died miles after refuelling at a Tesco, then a couple of years ago the Subaru threw up a CEL a few miles after a tesco fuel up and IIRC it needed an oxygen sensor to sort it......

 

[wigit]

before the wife new better she had a couple of issues due to poor quality fuel from our local sainsbury's, took about 3 tanks to get it back on song

 

[jrkitching]

How often does it happen then? I thought the one a couple of years ago referred to earleir in this thread was a "one off". Is it actually quite a common event?

Fuel is often pooled for transport (it makes sense to ship fuel from the closest physical refinery to the garage, for obvious reasons) so contamination whether by water or otherwise could happen to any fuel anywhere. It is the additive pack which gives the fuel its branding and this is commonly added at the point of delivery to the filling station.

I have a good friend who holds a senior position with BP Research at Sunbury and he maintains that the additive pack used in supermarket fuels is inferior to that used in the leading brands. I have no reason to doubt his judgment & therefore make a point of avoiding the supermarkets whenever I can.

 

[RobW]

food for thought...

Shell V Power is 136.9 per litre
Shell Regular 95 is 131.9 per liter

so that is 3.7% difference

now if you only get 5% better mpg with super which is the most expensive fuel

 

[306maxi]

food for thought...

Shell V Power is 136.9 per litre
Shell Regular 95 is 131.9 per liter

so that is 3.7% difference

now if you only get 5% better mpg with super which is the most expensive fuel

Depends if you've got a knock sensor though so the engine can take advantage of that extra octane.

I'm certainly not against using higher octane fuel, I just find it a little bit much to see cars getting 20% more mpg because they're using Tesco 99.

 

[RobW]

Depends if you've got a knock sensor though so the engine can take advantage of that extra octane.

I'm certainly not against using higher octane fuel, I just find it a little bit much to see cars getting 20% more mpg because they're using Tesco 99.

most cars do have knock sensors

 

[pearce_jj]

The real issue here IMO is that there is a general perception that octane level is a measure of energy content of fuel, but in fact there is no difference in the energy content. Those 20% claims are just rediculous.

 

[306maxi]

The real issue here IMO is that there is a general perception that octane level is a measure of energy content of fuel, but in fact there is no difference in the energy content. Those 20% claims are just rediculous.

Exactly. More octane just means that the fuel has better resistence to detonation.

 

[Super Uwe]

Well I always wonder if you can be sure it's just the fuel though, it's warming up now which of course makes your engine run a bit smoother on startup.

Sorry it's a bit later on in the thread!

It definitely wasn't down to the warmer weather as the first few times I'd had the "new" fuel it had been frosty overnight/early in the morning, however I do agree that warmer weather will help things out.

At the end of the day I think this whole subject has a Marmite-esque tendency to polarise opinion. Personally I am going to stick with it for a while and see if there is any significant difference over a longer period.

Perhaps that makes me a bit of a mug but I knew that already...

 

[grimwau]

I filled up with Momentum on Sunday, purely as an experiment and I will, in all honesty, be surprised to see any difference as both V Power and Ultimate haven't given me any discernible improvements.

 

[RobW]

I filled up with Momentum on Sunday, purely as an experiment and I will, in all honesty, be surprised to see any difference as both V Power and Ultimate haven't given me any discernible improvements.

be interested to hear your feedback

I used to use Tesco 99 Momentum as the station was next door, now I live near BP so have been using Ultimate.
On a run I obtained 50mpg on Ultimate.

Last week filled up with V Power and it was noticably nicer to drive.

I am not anal enough to fill out fuelly and also not prepared to risk pikey supermarket 95.

 

[grimwau]

Rob, didn't notice any difference in MPG using the Momentum, averaged 34.2MPG but I don't think this tells the whole story.

The Average Fuel Consumption reading on the car was showing 47MPG for the first 75 miles or so as the wife had a nice long drive to Salisbury and back straight after the fill up but then I had to drop the car down to Westover Sports Cars to pick up a courtesy car whilst they sorted out a rattle and did the air bag software update.

They had to take it to their Poole site for the update and I dare say that they didn't dawdle about as there is some nice dual carriageway en route. When I got it back both Trips had been reset, probably something to do with the update so all the original data had gone.

Luckily I always take the odometer reading when filling up (how anal is that?) so I reckon that without their "free" Italian Tune Up there would have been an overall improvement, but can't substantiate as due to the Salisbury trip the driving conditions aren't comparable like to like.

Personally, I think that when driven properly (you know what I mean) the benefits of the Momentum would probably be more noticeable but it is wasted on the wife, lol.

*FRA*