Rip Nelson Mandela

[pooroldcodger]

SA was peaceful under Mandelas control???

Care to explain this??

http://www.volkstaat.net/index.php?...killed-project-4020&catid=56:latest&Itemid=82

Too many media victims around here if you ask me.

I agree the media (particularly the BBC have gone a bit OTT.
Regarding your linked article - yes that is obviously not good at all, 4000 white farmers killed over a 20 year period.
However, you don't say how many blacks were murdrered in the same period. Nor does the article say what the circumstances were of these murders. Were they all purely to grab land and / or possessions, or were some of them revenge / retribution for harsh treatment?
I don't know, and the article doesn't say.
I still maintain though that Mandela was not perfect, and nor did he claim to be.
But then again neither were the white leaders who protected the apartheid policy were they?
But alt least he had the dignity to come out of prison looking for reform and reconciliation, not revenge.
Although to be honest I think he didn't mind being in jail at all, given how scary Winnie was. (joke)

 

[306maxi]

I know that he was connected to a "terrorist" organisation, but I don't know if he was a maker and planter of bombs and shooter of people, or a party to it by association.
However I do think that after 27 years in jail, and forgiving his jailers, and for what he achieved after he was finally released, he was a good man. After all, South Africa could have turned in to another Zimbabwe with that lunatic Mugabe in charge. Murdering white farmers so that he could grab the farms himself and have people running them that had no clue how to do it. Mandela turned in to a president for whites and blacks.
Also the apartheid regime was also an evil entity which deserved to be taken on, and defeated, and they eventually were. I do think the BBC have gone a bit OTT today however.

It's not a nice place to live. Some of my family live in a place called Ventersdorp, countless white farmers and their families have been raped and murdered and as horrible as it is to say it, it wasn't white people that did it.


Mandela wasn't a terrible PM, he wasn't as bad as Zuma who raped a virgin to cure himself of the HIV he thought he caught from someone..... but Mandela wasn't as great as the western media would have you believe. Google Julius Malema and you'll see that there's another possible Mugabe waiting to take control of South Africa.

 

[306maxi]

I agree the media (particularly the BBC have gone a bit OTT.
Regarding your linked article - yes that is obviously not good at all, 4000 white farmers killed over a 20 year period.
However, you don't say how many blacks were murdrered in the same period. Nor does the article say what the circumstances were of these murders. Were they all purely to grab land and / or possessions, or were some of them revenge / retribution for harsh treatment?
I don't know, and the article doesn't say.

They don't need a reason, they just turn up and shoot the men, rape the women and then shoot them. Please don't think I'm being melodramatic, that is honestly how it goes.

 

[306maxi]

Very hard to judge the man as we sit in our centrally heated homes with running water and fridge full of food...... desperate times call for desperate measures and the rule of apartheid in South Africa were very dark times.

But for some reason people happily judge the white South Africans without a problem?

 

[pooroldcodger]

But for some reason people happily judge the white South Africans without a problem?

They gave the world plenty of ammunition to judge them with - apartheid.

 

[pooroldcodger]

It's not a nice place to live. Some of my family live in a place called Ventersdorp, countless white farmers and their families have been raped and murdered and as horrible as it is to say it, it wasn't white people that did it.


Mandela wasn't a terrible PM, he wasn't as bad as Zuma who raped a virgin to cure himself of the HIV he thought he caught from someone..... but Mandela wasn't as great as the western media would have you believe. Google Julius Malema and you'll see that there's another possible Mugabe waiting to take control of South Africa.

I don't think anybody is saying that SA is perfect, or that all whites are bad and all blacks are good.
Far from it.
I agree Zuma is a disgrace.
But none of the above in my view detracts from the fact that Mandela was a decent president who did a good, if not perfect job.
On a lighter note- who would you rather have round for dinner?
Tony Blair?
Gordon Brown?
David Cameron?
Bono?
or Mandela?

 

[306maxi]

They gave the world plenty of ammunition to judge them with - apartheid.

Anyone considered that perhaps not all white South Africans were for Apartheid?


Tbh that's probably the most ignorant thing that's been said on this thread, that's like blaming every US citizen for the Iraq war or every Muslim for 9/11 and 7/7. No one (sensible) is bigoted enough to blame all Muslims for what's happened, you seem a pretty sensible chap so why blame all white South Africans for Apartheid?

 

[306maxi]

I don't think anybody is saying that SA is perfect, or that all whites are bad and all blacks are good.
Far from it.
I agree Zuma is a disgrace.
But none of the above in my view detracts from the fact that Mandela was a decent president who did a good, if not perfect job.
On a lighter note- who would you rather have round for dinner?
Tony Blair?
Gordon Brown?
David Cameron?
Bono?
or Mandela?

Mandela would stink a bit. Tbh I wouldn't want to meet a guy who took South Africa into first position in the rape tables.....


[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Africa[/ame]

It is estimated that over 50% of South African women will be raped in their lifetime

What a paradise!

 

[306maxi]

No disrespect, but some of the people on here are clueless about South Africa, I've been there and spent 6 months in total living with family and not just visiting the touristy spots and going on Safari.


Unless you've been to the place for a while or at least had a good chat with someone who's lived there, then you just don't know.

 

[pooroldcodger]

Anyone considered that perhaps not all white South Africans were for Apartheid?


Tbh that's probably the most ignorant thing that's been said on this thread, that's like blaming every US citizen for the Iraq war or every Muslim for 9/11 and 7/7. No one (sensible) is bigoted enough to blame all Muslims for what's happened, you seem a pretty sensible chap so why blame all white South Africans for Apartheid?

Maybe I am wrong and bow to your greater knowledge, but I thought they had a democracy?(Even if you had to be white to be part of it!)
If they didn't like it why didn't they get rid of it?
Of course they may have been afraid of the consequences of allowing blacks to take over, and you can understand that fear - especially with what has happened since.
My point, however clumsily made was that White South Aftricans are never going to be well thought of as the apartheid system was an anachronism played out under the spotlight of the world media. A throwback to the days of slavery.

 

[306maxi]

Maybe I am wrong and bow to your greater knowledge, but I thought they had a democracy?(Even if you had to be white to be part of it!)
If they didn't like it why didn't they get rid of it?
Of course they may have been afraid of the consequences of allowing blacks to take over, and you can understand that fear - especially with what has happened since.
My point, however clumsily made was that White South Aftricans are never going to be well thought of as the apartheid system was an anachronism played out under the spotlight of the world media. A throwback to the days of slavery.

Apartheid wasn't something you could vote out by texting in like the XFactor.

If you wanted to change the law on speeding here in the UK, what power do you as one single person have? You've also got to remember that until relatively recently the USA did similar, why don't you cheer every time there's a home invasion and some poor black person shoots a white person because of something which is no longer going on?


At the end of the day Mandela might have forgiven and forgotten, but the country as a whole hasn't forgiven to the point that it's only a small problem.

 

[AndyRKett]

I have good friends from SA, they were wealthy and employed a mostly black work force, who were paid very well for what they did.

During apartheid they lost friends in bomb attacks, many of who where hard working like themselves opposed apartheid, they had black servants who were paid well.

After apartheid they lost there business and their wealth fighting the changes, along with that their entire work force lost their jobs as did their servants.
They witnessed blacks killing whites and they witnessed blacks killing blacks. And again lost many black friends this way.

What Mandela did was set up a precedence for a whole generation of black Africans that's they didn't have to work for anything they just had to take it, didn't matter who from, and they did the crime rate exploded the shock waves of which are still felt today.

Unfortunately this destroyed things for those hard working black South Africans. And then later on employment laws on positive discrimination destroyed South African businesses and with it the economy and economic growth. One way or another apartheid would have ended maybe sooner maybe later, however the way in which it did end has basically held the whole country back for many years and many years to come.

I would argue that the end of apartheid was a double edged sword which South Africa fell on

What Mandela did after prison was undoubtedly 'great' in terms of impact that he had but was it really the answer to the problem? I can't see him as someone to be praised no more than other terrorist leaders who are now celebrated as great politicians

 

[306maxi]

I have good friends from SA, they were wealthy and employed a mostly black work force, who were paid very well for what they did.

During apartheid they lost friends in bomb attacks, many of who where hard working like themselves opposed apartheid, they had black servants who were paid well.

After apartheid they lost there business and their wealth fighting the changes, along with that their entire work force lost their jobs as did their servants.
They witnessed blacks killing whites and they witnessed blacks killing blacks. And again lost many black friends this way.

What Mandela did was set up a precedence for a whole generation of black Africans that's they didn't have to work for anything they just had to take it, didn't matter who from, and they did the crime rate exploded the shock waves of which are still felt today.

Unfortunately this destroyed things for those hard working black South Africans. And then later on employment laws on positive discrimination destroyed South African businesses and with it the economy and economic growth. One way or another apartheid would have ended maybe sooner maybe later, however the way in which it did end has basically held the whole country back for many years and many years to come.

I would argue that the end of apartheid was a double edged sword which South Africa fell on

What Mandela did after prison was undoubtedly 'great' in terms of impact that he had but was it really the answer to the problem? I can't see him as someone to be praised no more than other terrorist leaders who are now celebrated as great politicians

Completely agree with EVERYTHING you've said. South Africa could be such a wealthy country but the corruption and infighting mean that it's almost third world.

 

[Gavv8]

No disrespect, but some of the people on here are clueless about South Africa, I've been there and spent 6 months in total living with family and not just visiting the touristy spots and going on Safari.


Unless you've been to the place for a while or at least had a good chat with someone who's lived there, then you just don't know.

I haven't been to the moon but I can still discuss its relevance to the human race.

 

[gadge]

Just reading through this all and it seems a very difficult subject to discuss. Was he a terrorist or a freedom fighter? I know little about him but when I read up on apartheid and what was happening to the black population in SA back in the 20th century it's hard to belive that a country could be like this as little as 30 years ago? But then as mentioned above it was happening in a fashion in America when Rosa Parks refused to give her bus seat up to a white passenger and then the civil rights movement kicked in where a lot of rioting resulted in people - white and black - being killed...... Sad times indeed
Gavv8 is right, it's very easy to sit here in our cosy life's where we weren't really subjected to it on a daily basis. How far can a person be pushed when they say enough is enough and when you and family are being brutally oppressed what can that do to a mans mind like Nelson Mandela and the rest of the ANC to make them do what they did? I'll never be able to give an honest opinion because for me who had a very simple and easy life it's hard to imagine what was going on back in those days and say "yes he was right for supporting violence against the public" or "no he's no better than the IRA"

Which leads me to to totally agree with 306maxi and AndyRKett and say unless you've spoken to or know someone who lives there and was perhaps living through it when it all happened then I guess it'll always be difficult and controversial to discuss.

All I can say is.......RIP Paul Walker they may not have been the best films but they were a part of my life for so long

 

[306maxi]

Exactly


It would be absolutely wrong to day he's a bad man and there was nothing good about him, in fact it would probably be correct to say there was a lot more good than bad, but the world does him a disservice when it forgets why he was in prison.

 

[306maxi]

Then there's Che Guevara who was just a murderer who people think was a freedom fighter! I can understand why Nelson and the ANC did what they did, still doesn't excuse the taking of innocent lives.

dave


Am I to take it from your disliking my post that you think that it's right to take innocent lives?

 

[306maxi]

dave, you never answered my question

 

[bomscare]

The taking of innocent can never be right in normal circumstances...but at the time of the rebellion it was far from normal, far from fair . As I've said walk in the shoes of others before judging.. does that make our army boys terrorist ?. Or heroes fighting for other peoples rights. As for all the other bad stuff that's happening or happened in south Africa , greed ,corruption murders and so on that's human nature . Mandela was fighting for democracy a right to vote a right we take for granted. If south Africa descends into anarky, then that's the will of the people not one man. He fough for their freedom their right to self govern. Dave's original post still stands for me. RIP Nelson Mandela .... Freedom fighter , Peace to all....

 

[306maxi]

The taking of innocent can never be right in normal circumstances...but at the time of the rebellion it was far from normal, far from fair . As I've said walk in the shoes of others before judging.. does that make our army boys terrorist ?. Or heroes fighting for other peoples rights. As for all the other bad stuff that's happening or happened in south Africa , greed ,corruption murders and so on that's human nature . Mandela was fighting for democracy a right to vote a right we take for granted. If south Africa descends into anarky, then that's the will of the people not one man. He fough for their freedom their right to self govern. Dave's original post still stands for me. RIP Nelson Mandela .... Freedom fighter , Peace to all....

Bomscare, you misunderstand what I'm saying, I was talking about Che Guevara who murdered women and children. Dave seemed to disagree with me that this wasn't OK.