Sounds promising, keep at it Mark, you may have a working car by 2016 (lol) *ducks out of the way*
Project Cinq!
- Thread starter mrcinquecento
- Start date
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Project Cinq!
OP
OP
Just an update on where i am with the Cinq after i tried (and failed haha) to sort it in time for SICD.
It was "finished" 2 days before the event but the overfuelling issue i have been having when it gets hot, where at idle, it gave the odd pop and splutter, meaning emissions were crap was still there, so knowing it would fail, i didn't put it in for the test.
Been working on the assumption that it was a "simple" problem with a sensor, injectors etc but everything externally i checked was having little or no impact, so the only thing i could do was dig deeper.
Ran a compression test and immediately found the start of a problem. Whilst the results weren't especially clear cut, the compression was lower than it should have been, so that settled it, head off time.
So removed the head and found something immediately, the head gasket, albeit new, was failing in between cylinders 1 and 2, and techincally had failed in between 3 and 4 given the lightest carbon smearing. Basically regardless of what i found from here on in, the stripdown was a good call because it has saved me a breakdown. Took my feeler gauges to the head and ran a few measurements, head was out of tolerance, so it needed to be sent off for skim.
Still wasn't convinced it was the cause of the most obvious issue though, so packed up the head and brought it home to strip down. Valves need removed for these heads to be skimmed so i thought i'd run a quick hydro test on them, And..... Bingo! most of them were leaking. This means things were getting in and out when they shouldn't, so Map sensor was getting thrown off reding a bit of compression from the cylinders reaching the inlet so is/was dumping fuel in, combustion process was a mess in general, hence the popping at hot idle. Worst cylinder going on the state of the plugs also had by far the leakiest valves (all of them were leaking, the inlets were both gushing), so there's an issue found.
Sent of head for a skim, got it back yesterday and have spent about 10 hours all in cleaning up and lapping all the valves. Refitted, ran the same test as before and whilst not perfect, was a lot better and most were now fully sealed. Took the remaining leakers out, redid them, refitted, re-tested them and all passed. So hopefully that's that now.
It's pretty much ready to be rebuilt, with fresh (quality, genuine Fiat) gaskets, also putting on another new timing belt (Gates Powergrip) because A, it's my favoured make of belt, and B) the amount of times that old contitech belt has been touched, on, off, re-tensioned etc i didn't feel i could "trust" it, could well have been contaminated and failed early, so good practice to just fit a new belt whilst it's all apart.
It was "finished" 2 days before the event but the overfuelling issue i have been having when it gets hot, where at idle, it gave the odd pop and splutter, meaning emissions were crap was still there, so knowing it would fail, i didn't put it in for the test.
Been working on the assumption that it was a "simple" problem with a sensor, injectors etc but everything externally i checked was having little or no impact, so the only thing i could do was dig deeper.
Ran a compression test and immediately found the start of a problem. Whilst the results weren't especially clear cut, the compression was lower than it should have been, so that settled it, head off time.
So removed the head and found something immediately, the head gasket, albeit new, was failing in between cylinders 1 and 2, and techincally had failed in between 3 and 4 given the lightest carbon smearing. Basically regardless of what i found from here on in, the stripdown was a good call because it has saved me a breakdown. Took my feeler gauges to the head and ran a few measurements, head was out of tolerance, so it needed to be sent off for skim.
Still wasn't convinced it was the cause of the most obvious issue though, so packed up the head and brought it home to strip down. Valves need removed for these heads to be skimmed so i thought i'd run a quick hydro test on them, And..... Bingo! most of them were leaking. This means things were getting in and out when they shouldn't, so Map sensor was getting thrown off reding a bit of compression from the cylinders reaching the inlet so is/was dumping fuel in, combustion process was a mess in general, hence the popping at hot idle. Worst cylinder going on the state of the plugs also had by far the leakiest valves (all of them were leaking, the inlets were both gushing), so there's an issue found.
Sent of head for a skim, got it back yesterday and have spent about 10 hours all in cleaning up and lapping all the valves. Refitted, ran the same test as before and whilst not perfect, was a lot better and most were now fully sealed. Took the remaining leakers out, redid them, refitted, re-tested them and all passed. So hopefully that's that now.
It's pretty much ready to be rebuilt, with fresh (quality, genuine Fiat) gaskets, also putting on another new timing belt (Gates Powergrip) because A, it's my favoured make of belt, and B) the amount of times that old contitech belt has been touched, on, off, re-tensioned etc i didn't feel i could "trust" it, could well have been contaminated and failed early, so good practice to just fit a new belt whilst it's all apart.
OP
OP
Technically, this is the Cinqs 17th "birthday", well, in that 17 years ago today was the date of first uk registration :laugh:
It saw fresh air and drove 20 yards under it's own steam to mark the occasion :laugh:
It saw fresh air and drove 20 yards under it's own steam to mark the occasion :laugh:
OP
OP
The idling (and likely emissions) issues continue.... however.....
Perhaps a partial breakthough/direction of attack?
Perhaps a partial breakthough/direction of attack?
OP
OP
Photo Update AHOY!
Then putting it back in the garage, it "broke down" :laugh: Thankfully nothing serious, just ran out of petrol with all the time it had been running for testing purposes.
Then putting it back in the garage, it "broke down" :laugh: Thankfully nothing serious, just ran out of petrol with all the time it had been running for testing purposes.
Photo's like these are why we don't give up on these damn frustrating cars. They all look so good and whilst yes, there's imperfections they're still great little motors.
OP
OP
Indeed. I sometimes just need to take it out the garage, stand back and have a look at it when i'm frustrated, usually helps me get my enthusiasm back pretty quick to go fix it again haha.
In a way i'm as frustrated with it as i've ever been, because i'm so, so close to finally getting it mot'd i think. The fact i finally had it idling perfectly when fully hot yesterday for the first time since the new engine went in was, i think a massive breakthrough. Means i can focus my efforts to 1 or 2 areas rather that always having it in the back of my head that there might be a large underlying mechanical issue under it all meaning all the efforts in finding one or 2 of about 100 possibilities would be pointless.
It could well now be that the old issue has been fixed and it just needs time and miles under it's belt for the ecu to fully re-learn its fuel trim parameters, the fact it's perfectly happy under full electrical load shows it's fundamentally good and not far away, can probably even notice in the video that after i switch everything off and it starts popping again, the cooling fan comes on towards the end and even that alone stops that popping and the light hunting! So it doesn't even need full load to behave itself, that's how close it is to being perfect.
Seriously considering booking the mot next week, will slap a few jerry cans of fresh fuel in, make a few small adjustments to things that are irritating me and decide from there this weekend.
In a way i'm as frustrated with it as i've ever been, because i'm so, so close to finally getting it mot'd i think. The fact i finally had it idling perfectly when fully hot yesterday for the first time since the new engine went in was, i think a massive breakthrough. Means i can focus my efforts to 1 or 2 areas rather that always having it in the back of my head that there might be a large underlying mechanical issue under it all meaning all the efforts in finding one or 2 of about 100 possibilities would be pointless.
It could well now be that the old issue has been fixed and it just needs time and miles under it's belt for the ecu to fully re-learn its fuel trim parameters, the fact it's perfectly happy under full electrical load shows it's fundamentally good and not far away, can probably even notice in the video that after i switch everything off and it starts popping again, the cooling fan comes on towards the end and even that alone stops that popping and the light hunting! So it doesn't even need full load to behave itself, that's how close it is to being perfect.
Seriously considering booking the mot next week, will slap a few jerry cans of fresh fuel in, make a few small adjustments to things that are irritating me and decide from there this weekend.
gengis
Member
Good to see you working on the Cinq again. Quite a interesting issue you have with the popping when the electrical system is loaded. A couple of things come to mind which may help you on a resolution.
A popping exhaust is usually a sign of a weak mixture.
The system voltage will be depressed with a heavy load.
I would think one is causing the other, is the ECU getting the correct voltage (overvoltage/undervoltage)to pass on to the sensors, especially the sensors that deal with fuelling. Can you read the dynamic output from the lambda, is it over trimming the mixture...due to a bad supply +ve or -ve.
Could be that when a number of electrical circuits are on there is a better return path for the fuelling sensors, because of parrallel earth returns, and when these circiuts are off...the sensor earth return is compromised.
keep us informed of your progress.
A popping exhaust is usually a sign of a weak mixture.
The system voltage will be depressed with a heavy load.
I would think one is causing the other, is the ECU getting the correct voltage (overvoltage/undervoltage)to pass on to the sensors, especially the sensors that deal with fuelling. Can you read the dynamic output from the lambda, is it over trimming the mixture...due to a bad supply +ve or -ve.
Could be that when a number of electrical circuits are on there is a better return path for the fuelling sensors, because of parrallel earth returns, and when these circiuts are off...the sensor earth return is compromised.
keep us informed of your progress.
OP
OP
Yeah, the lambda voltage are roughly, as far as i can tell, where i'd expect them. I know the earths are clean to everything, but because it's a punto loom in a cinq, it's a bit compromised where it can really mount to and some of the earths are having to be shared, they should take the path of least resistance and be perfectly ok like that, however i'm certainly not ruling out 2 circuits running and somehow disturbing one of the signals to confuse matters.
At least i know kinda what track i'm on to find it
At least i know kinda what track i'm on to find it
OP
OP
Whisper this but....
I think i'm going to put it in for an mot....
Maybe.
Had it running at varying engine loads as well as varying electrical loads for over an hour continuously tonight to see just how much adaptation the ecu had left in it and at the end, with no electrical load, it was idling at about 840-850rpm stably and with no real stutters or pops, only just as it was putting the cooling fan on and the related current draw change did it really have any kind of significant pop, so seems the ecu is adapting a bit.
So the plan? bung as much redex as i dare into the tank, run it a little more then with a test booked, get "lost" on my way to the station and give it a hard, hard run.
Getting nervous just thinking about the test tbh :laugh:
I think i'm going to put it in for an mot....
Maybe.
Had it running at varying engine loads as well as varying electrical loads for over an hour continuously tonight to see just how much adaptation the ecu had left in it and at the end, with no electrical load, it was idling at about 840-850rpm stably and with no real stutters or pops, only just as it was putting the cooling fan on and the related current draw change did it really have any kind of significant pop, so seems the ecu is adapting a bit.
So the plan? bung as much redex as i dare into the tank, run it a little more then with a test booked, get "lost" on my way to the station and give it a hard, hard run.
Getting nervous just thinking about the test tbh :laugh:
fingers-crossed for you 
OP
OP
Just a small update, i pulled the idea of an mot test at the last moment because whilst it's made plenty improvements, i'm just not quite happy as it stands and whilst the idle issue is there (albeit lesser), don't think it's going to quite pass emissions yet.
However, the aim is to have it in next week.
I have ran every test i can possibly think of and have gone back to the drawing board of it being a mechanical based problem as every electrical test is coming back perfect every time, i'm starting to think the fact electrical load changes it is only covering the real issue up.
My latest theory is worn camshafts. Been reading up a lot about carb tuning and hot rodding etc purely in an attempt to get back to basics and have found that 1 or 2 lobes out can cause the symptoms i have. The cams are something i haven't touched/changed since the engine went in and this issue has been there since the start, the cams are of unknown condition being in the cambox. The ones in now are mk1 Punto (from a cabriolet) I have another set from a Stilo, now these will lose me a little top end power (boooooo) but should give me a little more torque lower down and perhaps even alter emissions in my favour for the test, given i am in effect "detuning" it a smidge.
If it sorts my issue, i can always change to another set of mk1's or a 1.4 16v set from a panda 100hp etc if i'm not happy with how it drives, so given i have them and it is effectively a free test on something i haven't checked, well worth a test to see if my issue changes/improves.
Removed the stilo cams tonight from the spare cambox (yes, swapping the whole box over would be easier, but it's a cam sensor type box with various holes and bumps that the mk1 inlet manifold won't go over)... what a c*** of a job that also involves removing a 1 use seal with various hammers and screwdrivers, but thankfully i have a spare one for refitting... Much harder job off the car because you can't get torque on the bolts, to loosen the bolts on the cams i ended up having to jack the cinq up and put the stilo cambox under the front wheel to use the whole thing as a 730kg vice haha, worked brilliantly
so tomorrow i'll be stripping the top end down (again, got it down to a fine art now) and fitting them and timing them up and seeing how it runs!
However, the aim is to have it in next week.
I have ran every test i can possibly think of and have gone back to the drawing board of it being a mechanical based problem as every electrical test is coming back perfect every time, i'm starting to think the fact electrical load changes it is only covering the real issue up.
My latest theory is worn camshafts. Been reading up a lot about carb tuning and hot rodding etc purely in an attempt to get back to basics and have found that 1 or 2 lobes out can cause the symptoms i have. The cams are something i haven't touched/changed since the engine went in and this issue has been there since the start, the cams are of unknown condition being in the cambox. The ones in now are mk1 Punto (from a cabriolet) I have another set from a Stilo, now these will lose me a little top end power (boooooo) but should give me a little more torque lower down and perhaps even alter emissions in my favour for the test, given i am in effect "detuning" it a smidge.
If it sorts my issue, i can always change to another set of mk1's or a 1.4 16v set from a panda 100hp etc if i'm not happy with how it drives, so given i have them and it is effectively a free test on something i haven't checked, well worth a test to see if my issue changes/improves.
Removed the stilo cams tonight from the spare cambox (yes, swapping the whole box over would be easier, but it's a cam sensor type box with various holes and bumps that the mk1 inlet manifold won't go over)... what a c*** of a job that also involves removing a 1 use seal with various hammers and screwdrivers, but thankfully i have a spare one for refitting... Much harder job off the car because you can't get torque on the bolts, to loosen the bolts on the cams i ended up having to jack the cinq up and put the stilo cambox under the front wheel to use the whole thing as a 730kg vice haha, worked brilliantly
so tomorrow i'll be stripping the top end down (again, got it down to a fine art now) and fitting them and timing them up and seeing how it runs!
OP
OP
Update, new (well old) Stilo cams in and results seem hugely positive. Idle stutter/pop seems to be gone and even with the ecu relearning its idle parameters, it's all running super smooth.
A very quick look at the old cams showed a few tiny areas of wear on a few of the lobes so i suspect it was just enough to throw it off at low speed idle but not really show up higher up the rev range.
A few small tests and then a badly needed wash for it this weekend, mot to be booked on Monday for later in the week all being clear!
A very quick look at the old cams showed a few tiny areas of wear on a few of the lobes so i suspect it was just enough to throw it off at low speed idle but not really show up higher up the rev range.
A few small tests and then a badly needed wash for it this weekend, mot to be booked on Monday for later in the week all being clear!
OP
OP
i did one before i took the head off a month or so ago and felt they were a bit low all over the board, from memory something like 155psi-160-psi across all cylinders dry. Not too concerning but nothing special either and should be around 180psi so took the head off and hydro tested it and found 12 leaking valves :laugh: Stripped the head down and re-lapped all the valves to a non leaking state, sent the head away for a skim and re-assembled.
Haven't tested again since rebuild because it's easily the biggest PITA test ever on the 16v engine because the spark plug holes are so deep seated and you need to use a long arm adaptor AND a thread adaptor just to get the tester on... which is superb until it comes to unscrewing the damn thing again from the engine and the long arm unscrews from it's adaptor which stays seated deep down the spark plug hole with no way of reaching down to undo it....
Haven't tested again since rebuild because it's easily the biggest PITA test ever on the 16v engine because the spark plug holes are so deep seated and you need to use a long arm adaptor AND a thread adaptor just to get the tester on... which is superb until it comes to unscrewing the damn thing again from the engine and the long arm unscrews from it's adaptor which stays seated deep down the spark plug hole with no way of reaching down to undo it....
OP
OP
Not that i'm aware of.
I'm using the parts of about 5 seperate engines all cobbled together to make one. Off the top of my head it's...
ecu, code box and lockset- 1 mk1 punto sporting.
Inlet manifold, Fuel rail, Injectors, Wiring loom- Another mk1 sporting.
Bottom end (bought as part of complete engine, hence having spare cams)- Stilo 1.2 16v
Cylinder head, Cambox, Cams, Exhaust Manifold, Coil packs- Mk1 Punto Cabrio.
Throttle body- Brava 1.6.
The point being the head with the (as it turned out) leaking valves (and out of flatness tolerance, hence why i sent it off for a skim) are part of the same original engine as the seemingly worn camshafts.... In other words, clearly all came off the one car that had been ragged until it died...and probably driven a bit further even after it had, hence the bad valve seats with all the **** it was ingesting clorting them up and seeming lack of oil getting to the top end....
Valve guides all seemed "ok" putting it back together at least and i've changed all the stem seals etc, so along with the skim and the valve being lapped back in, the head's been rescued.
I'm using the parts of about 5 seperate engines all cobbled together to make one. Off the top of my head it's...
ecu, code box and lockset- 1 mk1 punto sporting.
Inlet manifold, Fuel rail, Injectors, Wiring loom- Another mk1 sporting.
Bottom end (bought as part of complete engine, hence having spare cams)- Stilo 1.2 16v
Cylinder head, Cambox, Cams, Exhaust Manifold, Coil packs- Mk1 Punto Cabrio.
Throttle body- Brava 1.6.
The point being the head with the (as it turned out) leaking valves (and out of flatness tolerance, hence why i sent it off for a skim) are part of the same original engine as the seemingly worn camshafts.... In other words, clearly all came off the one car that had been ragged until it died...and probably driven a bit further even after it had, hence the bad valve seats with all the **** it was ingesting clorting them up and seeming lack of oil getting to the top end....
Valve guides all seemed "ok" putting it back together at least and i've changed all the stem seals etc, so along with the skim and the valve being lapped back in, the head's been rescued.
OP
OP
Mot booked.
Sadly the closest i could get is Monday, which means no WCR.
However it's normally at least 2 weeks to get into my favoured place, so to get booked in at relatively short notice, relatively soon is better than expected.
Had a nice chat with them on the phone about it, was really nice to hear their enthusiasm to get to see it in its new form after so many years away! so much happier putting it in there with enthusiasts that enjoy all kinds of cars than somebody that was so determined to fail it because they didn't like the look of it, they had it on ramps for hours whilst they hammered every painted area underneath with metal ball pein hammers to try and find non existant rust and ended up having to plump for nonsense like "untidy" horn wiring, Diagnostic plugs being able to foul the air filter if it was unclipped from its harness and an "inproperly repaired handbrake cable" that was brand new and passed all the effiecency tests.... etc etc etc.
Sadly the closest i could get is Monday, which means no WCR.
However it's normally at least 2 weeks to get into my favoured place, so to get booked in at relatively short notice, relatively soon is better than expected.
Had a nice chat with them on the phone about it, was really nice to hear their enthusiasm to get to see it in its new form after so many years away! so much happier putting it in there with enthusiasts that enjoy all kinds of cars than somebody that was so determined to fail it because they didn't like the look of it, they had it on ramps for hours whilst they hammered every painted area underneath with metal ball pein hammers to try and find non existant rust and ended up having to plump for nonsense like "untidy" horn wiring, Diagnostic plugs being able to foul the air filter if it was unclipped from its harness and an "inproperly repaired handbrake cable" that was brand new and passed all the effiecency tests.... etc etc etc.
Today's the day. Got my fingers-crossed for you [attachment=1:1er0tk4c]fingers-crossed.jpg[/attachment:1er0tk4c]
OP
OP
Thanks!
The verdict is in.................................
It failed.
BUT i'm happy!, a handful of stupidly minor things... a massive list of 4. 2 of which are headlight aim being too low, 1 slightly torn ball joint cover and 1 wheel fouling the splash guard.
Solution being, turn both the lights adjusters up, replace the ball joint cover, take the splash guard out..... about £3 of parts then :laugh:
Passed the only thing i was really worried about, emissions. Seems like it failed miserably on first go but they had a few attempts where it got a bit better as it kept getting hotter then all of a sudden it decided it wanted to play today (and the cat lit when it regained full temp) then suddenly absolutely sailed it and passed by a mile! :laugh: I didn't actually care what else it failed on as long as it got through emissions :laugh: from memory it's something like 200ppm for hc and 0.3 on co for fast idle and i ended up registering something like 101ppm and 0.013 for co
Booked back in for the (partial) retest Thursday!
The verdict is in.................................
It failed.
BUT i'm happy!, a handful of stupidly minor things... a massive list of 4. 2 of which are headlight aim being too low, 1 slightly torn ball joint cover and 1 wheel fouling the splash guard.
Solution being, turn both the lights adjusters up, replace the ball joint cover, take the splash guard out..... about £3 of parts then :laugh:
Passed the only thing i was really worried about, emissions. Seems like it failed miserably on first go but they had a few attempts where it got a bit better as it kept getting hotter then all of a sudden it decided it wanted to play today (and the cat lit when it regained full temp) then suddenly absolutely sailed it and passed by a mile! :laugh: I didn't actually care what else it failed on as long as it got through emissions :laugh: from memory it's something like 200ppm for hc and 0.3 on co for fast idle and i ended up registering something like 101ppm and 0.013 for co
Booked back in for the (partial) retest Thursday!
