Technical  Please help brake pedal issues

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Technical  Please help brake pedal issues

Neil williams

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Hi I own a fiat burstner which is based on a fiat ducato when the engine is off brake pedal is hard as soon as you start engine brake pedal creeps down I’ve checked all round no leaks took out all brake pads cleaned and greased changed master cylinder changed brake fluid and it’s still the same place help any ideas because it’s driving me mad
 
Diesel engines require a vacuum pump to provide vacuum for the brake servo.
Check the pipes from vacuum pump to brake servo.
Check one way valve for brake servo.

If you run engine then leave overnight without pressing brake pedal. When you first press pedal in morning is it hard to press ?

If the pipes and check valve and connections at brake servo ok then you will need a new brake servo. That will be fun job!

What year is it?
 
Diesel engines require a vacuum pump to provide vacuum for the brake servo.
Check the pipes from vacuum pump to brake servo.
Check one way valve for brake servo.

If you run engine then leave overnight without pressing brake pedal. When you first press pedal in morning is it hard to press ?

If the pipes and check valve and connections at brake servo ok then you will need a new brake servo. That will be fun job!

What year is it?
2004 I’ve checked pipes couldn’t see any damage or holes
 
When you say creeps down do you mean the pedal stroke is too long?

I'm puzzled because an old check for brake servo was with engine off pump brakes to exhaust servo until pedal goes hard......then with foot still on pedal start engine.....If pedal goes down then servo is working.
 
If the brake pedal doesn't travel too close to floor when pressed with engine running I would say the problem is with the servo not holding vacuum when engine not running.

It is a rare issue but does happen , it happened to me. Replacement servo worked wonders and improved brake performance.
 
If the brake pedal doesn't travel too close to floor when pressed with engine running I would say the problem is with the servo not holding vacuum when engine not running.

It is a rare issue but does happen , it happened to me. Replacement servo worked wonders and improved brake performance.
When engine is off brake pedal hard no movement start engine with foot still on brake pedal slowly goes to floor
 
When engine is off brake pedal hard no movement start engine with foot still on brake pedal slowly goes to floor
Do you ever have issues with a hard pedal when driving and feeling like you cannot stop? This would indicate brake vacuum was insufficient for what ever reason. I have had this where the brake vacuum pump is old and lazy until servo has gained enough vacuum.
Conversely do you ever come to a junction and find the brake pedal going down under your foot, or when holding it if you release fractionally and then keep the pressure on again it again starts to creep down under your foot, but have no lose of brake fluid at all, this is usually a faulty brake master cylinder.
Incidentally although frightening, on most modern vehicles the brake system is "dual circuit" this means the brake master cylinder will have two pistons in the master cylinder, normally they work as one unit, but if the pressure seals on one fail then the second one will usually work to provide some braking, it can feel as though the pedal is going to the boards, but hopefully it should have some effect.;)
The only other time I am aware of those symptoms is where a worn wheel bearing allows the brake disc wobbling to push the brake pads back , this means that the first time you press the brake pedal after a period of driving that the pedal goes down a long way, usually after the second "panic pump " the pedal will feel hard again until the next time.
Re single circuit brake systems I did have an issue in a 1955 Series one Land Rover break down vehicle whilst going on a recovery, I had just driven down a very steep hill , got to the broken down vehicle and went to turn around in the wide road, a brake metal pipe split and lost all the braking, the Land Rover went up a grassy bank and stopped luckily with no damage. I fixed the car and drove back to the garage very much slower than the outward journey.;)
Incidentally just a thought have the brake pads been recently replaced but brake discs with a large wear grove not been changed as that can give similar symptoms until brake pads bedded in to match the wear ridge.
I suspect from your initial post that loss of vacuum overnight is the likely cause as @jackwhoo suggest checking.
In an ideal World the brake vacuum reservoir should be capable of a few vacuum assisted brake uses even a couple of days later, before the engine starts up.:)
 
Not all the way but close to floor brakes work but very poor

Maybe one hose is bulging /ballooning under pressure.

You stated in post 1 new master cylinder fitted was it brand new or used? if you hadn't stated already replaced master cylinder I would have said was master cylinder.

You may need to take it to a garage for diagnosis and repair
 
It sounds like various things
Worn pad / discs
delamination of pad from back plate are possible.

I f the brakes dont work it could be the servo or vacuum pipe, or the vacuum pump. A split pipe beween vac pump and servo is quite possible. Hard pedal, engine off suggests not hydraulic but a part seized caliper quite possible. I wouls ask an mot station to test on their rollong road first.
My diesels only gave 1 servoed brake after the engine stopped, then nothing.
Fott on brake start engine and pedal sinks is basically normal. I would do rolling road and find out if its one corner / axle. Do servo and pipe checks and then look at basic operation. Get decent grade pads. Brake disc wear may be at the bottom of this.

How /when did the problem begin?
 
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