Technical Diesel Helpful suggestions needed please

[NDB1707]

Hi all
This is my first post and I'm not mechanically minded so need help. I have a 63plate Ducato 130 that is very lumpy at idle in the mornings. She surges from 800-1000 rpm when sat at the lights, is incredibly Smokey (white with hint of blue), and the exhaust gases stink.
When she's on the move she runs without issue, until back at idle. Doesn't happen everyday, but most and is worse when it's real cold. Once the engine has been running for 10 mins she's fine. But those first 10 mins is embarrassing and not great for those sat at the lights with me.
I have taken her to a fuel injection specialist who couldn't find an issue, but suggested the fuel flap was intermittently faulty . £500 later and I still have the issue!
If anybody can give concrete advise I'd really appreciate it. I don't think it's a DPF issue as the smoke is not dark, and if it helps she's done 98k miles.

Thanks

 

[bugsymike]

Hi all
This is my first post and I'm not mechanically minded so need help. I have a 63plate Ducato 130 that is very lumpy at idle in the mornings. She surges from 800-1000 rpm when sat at the lights, is incredibly Smokey (white with hint of blue), and the exhaust gases stink.
When she's on the move she runs without issue, until back at idle. Doesn't happen everyday, but most and is worse when it's real cold. Once the engine has been running for 10 mins she's fine. But those first 10 mins is embarrassing and not great for those sat at the lights with me.
I have taken her to a fuel injection specialist who couldn't find an issue, but suggested the fuel flap was intermittently faulty . £500 later and I still have the issue!
If anybody can give concrete advise I'd really appreciate it. I don't think it's a DPF issue as the smoke is not dark, and if it helps she's done 98k miles.

Thanks

I would look towards heater plug operation, especially as she runs fine when fully warmed up.
If it was high mileage I would question engine compression, but 98k is nothing.
By the way I have had vehicles with blocked DPF and unable to do a regen, usually choking white smoke, but it doesn't clear after a run and I would expect warning light on dashboard.

 

[NDB1707]

I would look towards heater plug operation, especially as she runs fine when fully warmed up.
If it was high mileage I would question engine compression, but 98k is nothing.
By the way I have had vehicles with blocked DPF and unable to do a regen, usually choking white smoke, but it doesn't clear after a run and I would expect warning light on dashboard.

Ok thanks. Yeah no warning lights at all, which I would have expected for glow coils too? Is it an easy thing to do, could I do it myself?

 

[bugsymike]

Ok thanks. Yeah no warning lights at all, which I would have expected for glow coils too? Is it an easy thing to do, could I do it myself?

If you had a good diagnostic tool for Fiats such as MES that many on Forum use it would probably even tell you which ones were faulty.
Off hand I don't know how easy the access is on that engine to get at heater plugs, recently did them on a1.6 Fiat Doblo which was straight forward, but a 2010 120hp 16 valve Fiat Scudo was a right pain, and this is someone with over 50 years in the trade before retiring.
It would be a good idea to test them and the relay before just changing them anyway.

 

[NDB1707]

If you had a good diagnostic tool for Fiats such as MES that many on Forum use it would probably even tell you which ones were faulty.
Off hand I don't know how easy the access is on that engine to get at heater plugs, recently did them on a1.6 Fiat Doblo which was straight forward, but a 2010 120hp 16 valve Fiat Scudo was a right pain, and this is someone with over 50 years in the trade before retiring.
It would be a good idea to test them and the relay before just changing them anyway.

Ok thanks, noted!

 

[deejays]

If you had a good diagnostic tool for Fiats such as MES that many on Forum use it would probably even tell you which ones were faulty.
Off hand I don't know how easy the access is on that engine to get at heater plugs, recently did them on a1.6 Fiat Doblo which was straight forward, but a 2010 120hp 16 valve Fiat Scudo was a right pain, and this is someone with over 50 years in the trade before retiring.
It would be a good idea to test them and the relay before just changing them anyway.

Unfortunately MES cannot indicate individual faulty glow plugs and I think this is because the Ducato does not report individual faults, just a global response indicating a glow plug issue. Individual testing with an ohm meter is required for that.

 

[NDB1707]

Unfortunately MES cannot indicate individual faulty glow plugs and I think this is because the Ducato does not report individual faults, just a global response indicating a glow plug issue. Individual testing with an ohm meter is required for that.

Are they expensive? Is it best to just change all of them (4?)

 

[deejays]

Are they expensive? Is it best to just change all of them (4?)

I have never had need to change them - but glow plugs are not that expensive. If that is the issue, then most advice I have seen is to replace all as the rest may not be far behind the one that has failed. The issue is getting them out without breaking them. Best thing to do first would be confirm if the glow plugs are the issue by testing them. It may be something else.

 

[bugsymike]

Unfortunately MES cannot indicate individual faulty glow plugs and I think this is because the Ducato does not report individual faults, just a global response indicating a glow plug issue. Individual testing with an ohm meter is required for that.

Sorry I don't use MES, I use MaxiEcu Scan tool and on Scudos and Doblos it gave the individual heater plug details.
I agree the Ohm meter will give an idea on continuity through the heater plug as a quick test and in the past that was my main method. However nowadays with lower voltage heater plugs (Doblo 1.6mj 4.4volts etc.) I prefer to connect a decent voltmeter in parallel to each individual plug to confirm voltage and also connect a Amp meter in series (one with a good range) which will read roughly 11 Amps on a good heater plug.
Many modern heater plug relays have a separate connection from the relay to each plug so easy for computer to recognise a faulty one.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi The white smoke you see and smell is likely to be a mist of unburnt diesel fuel. If you have one glow plug not working, the affected cylinder will not fire properly (or at all) on a cold start. Eventually the cylinder will warm up sufficiently for combustion to occur purely from compression heat i.e. without glow plug aid. The time it takes for this to happen will depend on how cold the engine was to begin with. If you have two bad glow plugs you may find it hard to start at all in cold weather and running will be very rough till it has warmed. The glow plugs can be tested in situ with a garage by using a specialised tester which powers them up fully. You can use an ohm meter at home, expect to see about 1 ohm, but tests like this at low power can be a bit inconclusive as some faults only show up with the plugs realistically hot.

The glow plug "relay" individually monitors the current drawn by all four plugs, I believe the more modern Ducatos can log an error code which will reveal which plug is faulty. Older models can't distinguish between individual plugs. Glow plug currents are high, tens of amps per plug, so the wiring and fuses must be in good condition.

Modern glow plugs are long and thin with a weak shell, and tend to seize into the cylinder head. Without great care when being removed they can snap off, after which specialised tools are needed to get them out ( £££ ). So if you decide one or more need renewing, make sure the workshop have done the job before and know the pitfalls. The cost of the plugs themselves is small compared to the labour involved.

 

[NDB1707]

Hi The white smoke you see and smell is likely to be a mist of unburnt diesel fuel. If you have one glow plug not working, the affected cylinder will not fire properly (or at all) on a cold start. Eventually the cylinder will warm up sufficiently for combustion to occur purely from compression heat i.e. without glow plug aid. The time it takes for this to happen will depend on how cold the engine was to begin with. If you have two bad glow plugs you may find it hard to start at all in cold weather and running will be very rough till it has warmed. The glow plugs can be tested in situ with a garage by using a specialised tester which powers them up fully. You can use an ohm meter at home, expect to see about 1 ohm, but tests like this at low power can be a bit inconclusive as some faults only show up with the plugs realistically hot.

The glow plug "relay" individually monitors the current drawn by all four plugs, I believe the more modern Ducatos can log an error code which will reveal which plug is faulty. Older models can't distinguish between individual plugs. Glow plug currents are high, tens of amps per plug, so the wiring and fuses must be in good condition.

Modern glow plugs are long and thin with a weak shell, and tend to seize into the cylinder head. Without great care when being removed they can snap off, after which specialised tools are needed to get them out ( £££ ). So if you decide one or more need renewing, make sure the workshop have done the job before and know the pitfalls. The cost of the plugs themselves is small compared to the labour involved.

Ok that's great advise thank you. If I just run as is for a while will it do any detrimental damage to the engine?