Technical Petrol smell and odd running.

[The Panda Nut]

Just thinking of this and the dealer did say they see this quite a lot and have found that changing the evap cannister and purge valve seems to sort this and unfortunately the parts are expensive. I can send you a copy of my invoice so you can see exactly what they did if it would help. Thankfully the first job was warranty and they did replace those bits at reduced cost the second time but it still made my eyes water. I do now have a further period of warranty .

 

[murphyv310]

Thanks.
Yes I'd like to see a copy of the invoice I'll PM you with my email.
Thank you again.

 

[murphyv310]

Still getting the odd whiff of petrol. Spent another couple of hours looking for an obvious reason.
Had a good look at the fuel lines and the evap pipework to no avail. Removed the offside rear arch liner and removed the evap canister, no signs of fuel in it and realistically no fumes either. It seals fine with all but one connection blocked so no cracks or leaks. Refitted it and ran the engine. Then I tried the following. Connected two leads to the purge valve after removing the plug and started the engine, applied 12v to the purge valve and there was a noticeable hiss, 10 seconds or so later the revs went up to 1500 rpm and it went into limp mode.
Two codes came up, MAF sensor and evaporative system fault, both to be expected, this would indicate that what I did is being detected.
So in a way I'm no further forward. I'm very reluctant to go to the dealer till after my break on the 19th July, quite simply if I have a big bill before then I'll have to cancel our break. Myself and Judy had a terrible experience after we got married with a filthy hotel in Oban, we just came home. So I don't want another disappointment.
Once the revs are above 3000rpm the running issue goes away.
Whats annoying me most is I hate getting beaten by a car!!!

 

[The Panda Nut]

My last post seems to have got lost.

Nothing in the workshop book that seems to help. Except purge valve opens only when engine is warm. If its opening when cold it will allow excess fuel vapour to be breather and then the O2 sensors may throw a wobbler that could lead to rough running. It does explain why the dealer replaced the temp sensor, MAF cannister and purge valve, I can now see their logic. They reckoned running with purge valve open / part open was enough to mess up the MAP sensor....
Have you first tried fuel system additive / cleaner?

See if cleaning the inlet manifold and throttle body help.

If not my first port of call would now be the temperature sensor.

We had an exhaust leak on our 169 that caused funny running, so I would also check the flexi section of the exhaust and the whole system for loose clamps / leaks.

Being a pigate spender if all else fails I would do all the sensors mentioned and the cannister as a set as doing part of the job was a very expensive to do on our car as we had a second bout of trouble and as you say the bill was eye watering even without tappets and MOT.

 

[murphyv310]

My last post seems to have got lost.

Nothing in the workshop book that seems to help. Except purge valve opens only when engine is warm. If its opening when cold it will allow excess fuel vapour to be breather and then the O2 sensors may throw a wobbler that could lead to rough running. It does explain why the dealer replaced the temp sensor, MAF cannister and purge valve, I can now see their logic. They reckoned running with purge valve open / part open was enough to mess up the MAP sensor....
Have you first tried fuel system additive / cleaner?



See if cleaning the inlet manifold and throttle body help.

If not my first port of call would now be the temperature sensor.

We had an exhaust leak on our 169 that caused funny running, so I would also check the flexi section of the exhaust and the whole system for loose clamps / leaks.

Being a pigate spender if all else fails I would do all the sensors mentioned and the cannister as a set as doing part of the job was a very expensive to do on our car as we had a second bout of trouble and as you say the bill was eye watering even without tappets and MOT.

Hi Peter.
Many thanks for your info.

I have used fuel system cleaner, The live data is normal and the temperature indicates normal running values between 88c & 92c with it going to just above 102c and the radiator fan coming on when idling. Today we went up to Glasgow and the car seems to to be less hesitant but the fuel consumption is higher than normal about 4mpg worse than usual, there again was some fuel smell when I got out of the car.

This afternoon I examined the plugs and they are a good light colour but the centre electrodes have a distinct curve at the tip (Denso VXU22 Iridium's)
I've also had the Throttle body off but its spotless.

The smell of fuel is still worrying but there is absolutely no signs of leaks anywhere. I'm even thinking I have had bad fuel so I'll be topping up tomorrow to see if anything changes.

If I cannot get an answer I have no option in going to the dealer.

EDIT: Just a few weeks ago the Brake booster vacuum switch failed. I fitted a new one from Shop4Parts. I opened up the original expecting to find a dry soldered joint on the actual microswitch but the switch plunger was as if it had been eating too many chips it was all enlarged and floppy so actuating the microswitch all the time. I thought this odd at the time. Since the new part has been fitted the stop start has been faultless even with this issue. So as far as I can tell the stop start does not operate when the system is running open loop during warm up time only in closed loop, so it's further proof that the system is probably working as it should. I'm baffled.

 

[murphyv310]

Hi.
Not good news I'm afraid. Back to really bad running this morning and very strong petrol smell from exhaust. Full throttle and its pretty well normal. Went though all the live data and all comes back OK with the exception of temperature data. Oddly on "torque" its fine but on Alfa OBD and MES it says -40, it cant be as when I remove the sensor plug it floods the engine. Now when I tickle the throttle to get above 1000rpm its as rough as a badgers ass, so on small throttle openings its really poor.

I now have no option of going to the dealer. I literally cannot afford a bill of £500 so the car will have to be put off the road if thats the case, no trip to Cramlington on Sunday to see my sick friend, who has worsened in the past week and the first break since 2009 is likely to be cancelled too.

Rather pissed off now.

 

[murphyv310]

Hi
Due to commitments I haven't taken the car to the dealers.
This morning I had to use the car and I have to say it was running about normal. Last evening though I did a self learned functions reset and it did a clutch switch relearn, and now the cars idling is now slightly faster as is cold fast idle. Today there was no petrol smells with the exception of a cold start. I'm actually going to run it this week and take a chance in going to Cramlington on Sunday, I've bought full AA cover for one month including recovery, my friend is very ill and I honestly cannot put this trip off. If the car runs as it has today I doubt it will be a problem. I've now a new set of Iridium NGK plugs fitted and I can see the gap is smaller than on the old Denso Iridium plugs. I just wonder if the coil pack was/is tracking and this is the issue, there is no misfire codes nor anything wrong with Lambda values. I might ask a garage to do an emissions test before Sunday though.
Again perhaps I had dodgy petrol...... Too many questions and no real answers.

 

[Dave lee]

Put some Shell V Power in. See if that helps.

 

[murphyv310]

Hi
I managed to add just under 3 gallons of Vpower before the pump clicked I also got 6 litres in a Green Petrol can and I'll top up before going onto the M74 on Sunday as there is no Shell filling stations on the A71 my preferred route to the motorway. Since my last post I've been round the earth's and substituted the coil pack, there is now less of the rough running but the car is definitely less lively with some hesitation. I've been told this is an ECU problem and known? The only things that are amiss on the readings is - 40c coolant on MES & Alfa OBD but correct on any other reader?? Also one cylinder has a wildly different knock value, I wonder if this points to an injector?
The dealer wants £100 for a diagnostic.
Beginning to loose faith in the car and the dealer network.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Hi
I managed to add just under 3 gallons of Vpower before the pump clicked I also got 6 litres in a Green Petrol can and I'll top up before going onto the M74 on Sunday as there is no Shell filling stations on the A71 my preferred route to the motorway. Since my last post I've been round the earth's and substituted the coil pack, there is now less of the rough running but the car is definitely less lively with some hesitation. I've been told this is an ECU problem and known? The only things that are amiss on the readings is - 40c coolant on MES & Alfa OBD but correct on any other reader?? Also one cylinder has a wildly different knock value, I wonder if this points to an injector?
The dealer wants £100 for a diagnostic.
Beginning to loose faith in the car and the dealer network.

Ive been wondering about an injector issue. I am not sure but it look like these are more or less push fit with a spring clip and an O ring, I wonder if the O rings are at fault. Poor assambly?? It would be worth checking that the injector wiring is also undamaged. I would have thought MES would throw up some fault if an injector was at fault though.

I have found that the Dealer diagnostics seem to get deeper into things.

Back to first principles spark and fuel, timing, valves.

Could the timing belt have jumped a tooth?

Just verbalising my erratic thoughts.

 

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I doubt it's a jumped tooth, surely there would be mis timing then and the MIL would come on. There is no timing issues as far as I can tell.
If you remember early on I said the capless fuel system was partially open and I wonder if there is water in the tank. Water will not really pass through an injector, I could try 99% IPA it will mix with water and will allow it to pass through an injector. The issue happened as I was negotiating a right hand bend so it's not outwith the realms of possibly. Meths will also mix with water.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Hi.
I doubt it's a jumped tooth, surely there would be mis timing then and the MIL would come on. There is no timing issues as far as I can tell.
If you remember early on I said the capless fuel system was partially open and I wonder if there is water in the tank. Water will not really pass through an injector, I could try 99% IPA it will mix with water and will allow it to pass through an injector. The issue happened as I was negotiating a right hand bend so it's not outwith the realms of possibly. Meths will also mix with water.

Do you have the rubber filler cover attached to the filler flap. I had to keep the one off my 2017 car as the 2019 did not have it. I certainly notice its always covered in water when its raining. I fitted it by drilling the fuel flap using a sharp drill bit and finger power only. You may very well be right about rough running, but the petrol smell is still mysterious.

 

[murphyv310]

It was indeed mysterious.
It's been away now for a good few days. I got a good purge solenoid from ebay for £25 and it's in and working.
I'm confident that the run will be OK tomorrow and that perhaps self learning will gradually restore performance. I've put in 50cc meths in the tank so it may allow any rogue water through the imjector/s.
Will see.

 

[The Panda Nut]

It was indeed mysterious.
It's been away now for a good few days. I got a good purge solenoid from ebay for £25 and it's in and working.
I'm confident that the run will be OK tomorrow and that perhaps self learning will gradually restore performance. I've put in 50cc meths in the tank so it may allow any rogue water through the imjector/s.
Will see.

Check the valve is close when connected with the engine cold. It should open when its warm only. I suppose stuck open it allows excess fuel vapour to be drawn onto the intake and everything goes haywire. I suppose this is also the reason they replaced my temp sensor with my problem.

If all this emissions crap actually did a job, instead of facilitating manufacturers get around tactics it wouldn't be so infuriating and such a waste, of time money and nervous energy!

 

[murphyv310]

Hi.
Well I went to Cramlington yesterday. There was major issues on hills namely on the M74 & A69. Whereas I could hold 70mph before in 5th gear I had to drop to 4th on the M74 inclines and struggled to hold 4th on one on the A69. Fuel consumption was around 5mpg worse on the run. The return journey was worse in other respects, it was foggy, there was a 4 car pile up just minutes before we got to that point, it was on the start of a bend at a section with the get in lane arrows with one car on it's roof and unrecognisable. It did look as if all got out but one guy had blood streaming from his face, only a police officer was in attendance. The A720 was closed due to flooding and we had drive via the city. The M8 was also badly flooded in places.
The climb up the M77 was a joke with massive speed drop.

I have now taken advice and have been told the ECU is definitely faulty and there is an issue with the engine, will see later the actual details.

I now think this is the end of the road for me with Fiat ownership.

I've checked with Arnold Clark as they are buying cars right now and I've been offered £6711 for it, they dont drive the car only start it and check for warning lights so I might go down that route. If so I'll remove the brand new Platinum plugs, Space saver wheel and tools, and the oil catch tank. I'll offer them on here.

Will update later when I go for the car, just leaving.

I'll probably buy a cheaper car perhaps a few years older.

 

[murphyv310]

Update.
The ECU is definitely the issue. The signal for the knock sensor is way out and causing the ECU to really retard the ignition. I have no idea how the knock sensor/s work or where they are located, so I'm confused, the long and the short of it is the ignition is retarded and has also damaged the catalyser.


Bill over £1000.

 

[gar074]

That's an absolute bummer. And this is on a 2017 car? Very poor.