Technical Passenger door mirror not working but not faulty...

[Punto669]

Hello,

My passenger door mirror has stopped working when I try to adjust it from the driver door control.
Driver side mirror is working ok.

What I have done;
1. Removed the pax mirror connector and with a multimeter checked the pins. There are 4 pins which go to 12v when the adjuster is pressed in one of the directions.
I understand this is a 'dirty' test as the mirror unit has 2 motors and I'm only testing a single pin at a time.
But this shows something is being sent/happening on 4 pins at some point in pressing the adjustor pad.

2. I then removed the pax mirror unit and plugged it into the drivers side - and it WORKS!
So I am assuming the mirror motor unit is working as expected.

So what is wrong?
4 pins on the connector are receiving 12v at some point in pressing the adjuster in one of the 4 directions.
But something isn't working correctly/somewhere to send the correct combination of voltage or a signal it needs to mirror ( ) the presses on the adjustor pad.

Next I wanted to look at the connector between body & door - but I don't know how to disconnect it - can anybody tell me the correct way so I don't end up with a broken connector?

Suggestions for what to look at/test next very welcome.


Thanks,

Mark

 

[Punto669]

Update: I've disconnected the body to door connector and it looks absolutely fine inside.

 

[Punto669]

Does anyone have a wiring diagram which shows the driver door control circuit? Or pinout of the mirror control pad/buttons?

Before I take it apart - do they fail internally?

 

[Punto669]

I took the switch apart and all contacts look good and have continuity back to the pins.
There is what looks like remnants of some sort of grease - could be dried up in spots. What sort of grease would this be in a multi contact switch - dielectric?

I also tried tracing the wiring from the switch connector to the mirror connector and got continuity from pin 5 of the switch connector to 3 pins on the mirror connector (1,6&7).
With ignition on the mirror connector was showing fluctuating voltage of 2.50v-2.80v on pin 1(neg) & 2(pos).

Going to check the wiring diagram and look at it again with switch connected.

 

[The Panda Nut]

try the other mirror on tthe iffy wiring. . Surely there are more tha 4 wires? try contact cleaner spray too. then look for poor/ loose connections in the plug and mirror.

 

[varesecrazy]

try the other mirror on tthe iffy wiring. . Surely there are more tha 4 wires? try contact cleaner spray too. then look for poor/ loose connections in the plug and mirror.

My recollection was 6 wires..
2 for the Glass Heater Pad (remainder for positioning control)

 

[Punto669]

try the other mirror on tthe iffy wiring. . Surely there are more tha 4 wires? try contact cleaner spray too. then look for poor/ loose connections in the plug and mirror.

My recollection was 6 wires..
2 for the Glass Heater Pad (remainder for positioning control)

Mirror side has a 7 point connector and control module end has a 12 hole connector - but not all have a contact in them.
To make things more interesting the mirror module has just 8 pins coming out the back of it.
Well I know the mirror works fine as I tried it on the drivers door.

I've looked up the wiring diagram on eLearn and it looks like 4 connections per side. So I'll stick the module back in and compare outputs with the drivers side.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Live and earth for the mirror heating element and 6 wires for the motors which I would expect for be two common earths one per motor and two lives one for up and the other for down one for in the other for out 8 in all. Could be 7 if the two motor earths are on one pin and 6 ifthe earth also includes the heater element earth. Tends to agree with what you found. The fact that it stopeed working (and the 7 pins) suggests the most likely place to look is the joint earth. or the pin with two wires connected as it seems unlikely that several wires would develop a fault at the same time so this is the most likely culprit maybe.

 

[varesecrazy]

Did you figure this out?

 

[Punto669]

My recollection was 6 wires..
2 for the Glass Heater Pad (remainder for positioning control)

This sounds about right from memory.

Live and earth for the mirror heating element and 6 wires for the motors which I would expect for be two common earths one per motor and two lives one for up and the other for down one for in the other for out 8 in all. Could be 7 if the two motor earths are on one pin and 6 ifthe earth also includes the heater element earth. Tends to agree with what you found. The fact that it stopeed working (and the 7 pins) suggests the most likely place to look is the joint earth. or the pin with two wires connected as it seems unlikely that several wires would develop a fault at the same time so this is the most likely culprit maybe.

I removed the body to door connector and now have a broken locking tab due to brittle plastic. All pins & contacts look in good condition.
Only got continuity on 2-3 pins if I remember correctly and no sensible looking -/+ readings.
So currently suspecting possible fault with internal door loom.

Did you figure this out?

Not yet and leaving it for now

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Check eLearn: https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearnsections/main.aspx?nodeID=199000002&languageID=2&markID=1&modelID=199000000&valID=199000000&prodID=199000000&modelName=Fiat - 199 - Grande Punto&langDesc=English&sectionName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.2 8v

Circuit is fairly easy. Just a few motors and switches/contacts, a couple plugs/connectors. That's all. It must be a bad contact or ground somewhere.
Checking continuity can fool you, because multimeter can see the motor windings as a continuity (which it is in a sense).
Must be careful what are you "checking" and how (are other things connected or disconnected while you checking).
Also, multimeter probes can ruin good contacts if you force them into plug/socket (you are spreading contacts apart).
Plus, multimeter is not loading the contacts during test. Check again using probe (with real bulb, not LED) or straight bulb (5W minimum).
Open the "module" (H030), maybe you will be able to see the actual contacts (if they really OK or burnt etc.).

Diagram: https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearnsections/main.aspx?nodeID=199008358&languageID=2&markID=1&modelID=199000000&valID=199000000&prodID=199000000&modelName=Fiat - 199 - Grande Punto&langDesc=English&sectionName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.2 8v

Be careful especially if you are using such tools (for electricians supposedly), probes/testers. Not suitable for car and electronics.
All brands/models behave differently and trigger for "continuity" will vary a lot. One tool like that is often not enough to prove good/bad contact.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The Marked tracks on the switch control the direction of control from left to right.

The larger of the pads especially the one on the right looks particularly worn. This is where I would look for the fault It may be as simple as needing a new switch. You could confirm by manually making the connections across the pads with something like a paper clip or coin on an area of the pad which isn't so worn.

 

[Punto669]

So I decided to revisit this and now wish I hadn't.....

The Marked tracks on the switch control the direction of control from left to right.

The larger of the pads especially the one on the right looks particularly worn. This is where I would look for the fault It may be as simple as needing a new switch. You could confirm by manually making the connections across the pads with something like a paper clip or coin on an area of the pad which isn't so worn.

I took the switch apart again and the 'worn' looking patch is more like just the contact area and the camera making it look bad. It has good continuity all over and is not worn or damaged.

Now the wiring diagram.... which I presume is for a LHD? (RHD will be a mirror image for driver controls?)
Are these the correct colour codes for the Grande Punto;
A - light blue
B - white
C - orange
G - yellow
H - grey
L - blue
M - brown
N - black
R - red
S - pink
V - green
Z - violet
For mixed colours the first letter represents the main colour.

So I thought I would first check the door wiring from the PAX door coupling to the mirror module connector.
First I opened the window and turned off the ignition.
Next I undid the door coupling.
Then I separated the mirror module connector.
Checking the wiring diagram I couldn't work out the colour codes.
Can you guess what I did next.......?? go on have a guess.......

 

[GrandePunto PL]

There are versions to all schematics (right/left hand drive) and the year (before and after 2008).
https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearns...onName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.4 8v

Most of the time cable colours are different... Example 1:
https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearns...onName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.4 8v
Example 2 (same thing, schematic is mostly identical):
https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearns...onName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.4 8v

 

[The Panda Nut]

i guess its not good

 

[Punto669]

i guess its not good

Well have a guess....

 

[Punto669]

There are versions to all schematics (right/left hand drive) and the year (before and after 2008).
https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearnsections/main.aspx?nodeID=199000002&languageID=2&markID=1&modelID=199000000&valID=199000001&prodID=199000000&modelName=Fiat - 199 - Grande Punto&langDesc=English&sectionName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.4 8v

Most of the time cable colours are different... Example 1:
https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearnsections/main.aspx?nodeID=199008353&languageID=2&markID=1&modelID=199000000&valID=199000001&prodID=199000000&modelName=Fiat - 199 - Grande Punto&langDesc=English&sectionName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.4 8v
Example 2 (same thing, schematic is mostly identical):
https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearnsections/main.aspx?nodeID=199001292&languageID=2&markID=1&modelID=199000000&valID=199000001&prodID=199000000&modelName=Fiat - 199 - Grande Punto&langDesc=English&sectionName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.4 8v

OK so the diagram can't be trusted or they have not bothered to update it correctly.

For this diagram: APPLICABLE TO VERSIONS WITH: Right hand drive
Url: https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearns...onName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.4 8v

H030: ADJUSTABLE MIRRORS CONTROL - connections 2, 9 & 11 go to D030: LEFT FRONT DOOR COUPLING (2 to 13, 9 to 14, 11 to 12 - are they wired directly without going back into the main wiring loom from door loom?)
D030: LEFT FRONT DOOR COUPLING is showing 3 connections going to D031: RIGHT FRONT DOOR COUPLING - ??? (13 to 13, 14 to 14, 12 to 12 - ?)
THEN the same 3 connections; 13 LM, 14 BM, 12 SZ go to P061: PASSENGER SIDE DOOR MIRROR - ??? (13 to 4, 14 to 3, 12 to 5)


So e-learn diagram is showing the RHD mirror control wired to the left front door coupling which is wired to the right front door coupling which is wired to the passenger door mirror.

Am I missing something or have I gone mad?

 

[GrandePunto PL]

I don't see any "problem" with the schematics. It's a simple one (summary: driver controls both mirrors, that's it).
You just can't read it properly, you don't understand it. So you make your own "interpretations" of how the circuit should work.
That's all (most common problem with electronics: people cannot read the diagrams, they just stare at them, like it's hieroglyphs).
Good luck "fixing" this car. Maybe it's time to declare defeat(?) after TWO YEARS. Take this to the electrician.

 

[Punto669]

I don't see any "problem" with the schematics. It's a simple one (summary: driver controls both mirrors, that's it).
You just can't read it properly, you don't understand it. So you make your own "interpretations" of how the circuit should work.
That's all (most common problem with electronics: people cannot read the diagrams, they just stare at them, like it's hieroglyphs).

Well it makes you wonder about a company that is in the business of producing technical/service material and not being concerned with 'accuracy'...

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Yes, some info in the eLearn is not 100% accurate, but the principle of operation is OK in general (both mechanical and electrical stuff).
That should be enough to fix the car, if you understand the basics (regardless of car brand, model) - most people struggle with that, so they blame it all on the service manual accuracy, tools or spare parts (inferior) quality. You will never fix this with that kind of attitude.