Technical Passenger door mirror not working but not faulty...

[Punto669]

Yes, some info in the eLearn is not 100% accurate, but the principle of operation is OK in general (both mechanical and electrical stuff).
That should be enough to fix the car, if you understand the basics (regardless of car brand, model) - most people struggle with that, so they blame it all on the service manual, tools or spare parts quality.

Here's my 'principles of operation' of it, what do you reckon - OK to publish?

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Just fix this car. What's the problem?
Do you need additional two years?
OK then, see you in the 2027. Give us an update.

 

[Punto669]

Just fix this car. What's the problem?
Do you need additional two years?
OK then, see you in the 2027. Give us an update.

Yes probably. I'm losing the enthusiasm. I took 75% of the interior out to dry it out because of the rear right cluster seal leaking water inside which had accumulated a lake under the right side of the passenger cabin. In the removal & refitting various clips and mountings have failed as they seem to be made of paper mache.
Now its time to replace the timing belt and I'm looking for a water pump before doing that delightful job.
My clutch is now suspected of making an ocassional noise (which I think is getting more frequent) - so I'm thinking of first checking adjustment/bleeding it. If it is the clutch bearing then definately not a job I will enjoy.
So the mirrors are largely unimportant.

But to save myself the effort I am just thinking to going back to a nice German/Japanese car.
But as I'm in London and only currently drive 1-2 times a week and use for weekends away (I ride a motorbike), I'm undecided if its worth spending all that money for it to sit there the majority of time.

Take my Punto for free off me (and lets see how long it will take to fix all the issues) and I'll post back if there are any issues on my replacement German/Japanese car....
Apart from service items I bet you won't hear from me before 2027....

 

[The Panda Nut]

OK so the diagram can't be trusted or they have not bothered to update it correctly.

For this diagram: APPLICABLE TO VERSIONS WITH: Right hand drive
Url: https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearnsections/main.aspx?nodeID=199003690&languageID=2&markID=1&modelID=199000000&valID=199000001&prodID=199000000&modelName=Fiat - 199 - Grande Punto&langDesc=English&sectionName=Impianto Elettrico&validityName=1.4 8v

H030: ADJUSTABLE MIRRORS CONTROL - connections 2, 9 & 11 go to D030: LEFT FRONT DOOR COUPLING (2 to 13, 9 to 14, 11 to 12 - are they wired directly without going back into the main wiring loom from door loom?)
D030: LEFT FRONT DOOR COUPLING is showing 3 connections going to D031: RIGHT FRONT DOOR COUPLING - ??? (13 to 13, 14 to 14, 12 to 12 - ?)
THEN the same 3 connections; 13 LM, 14 BM, 12 SZ go to P061: PASSENGER SIDE DOOR MIRROR - ??? (13 to 4, 14 to 3, 12 to 5)


So e-learn diagram is showing the RHD mirror control wired to the left front door coupling which is wired to the right front door coupling which is wired to the passenger door mirror.

Am I missing something or have I gone mad?

Its a Fiat. Known for dodgy electrics HA HA.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I don’t know why you’re getting so hung up on diagrams, it’s such a simple circuit, 3 wires from the drivers door switch.

Just do as suggested in post 11 and follow the circuit and test the continuity

You’ve established the switch and the mirror works so it’s just the wiring….. 3 wires, you could have installed 3 new wires by now. Realistically if the car is full of water, that could be the cause of the problem

 

[Punto669]

Its a Fiat. Known for dodgy electrics HA HA.

Well so far I've not suffered from 'dodgy electrics' as such but other design flaws that have affected the electrics in some way;
Rear wash wipe water feed tube failing in the body to rear hatch rubber tube then the water running down the loom straight to the rear left light cluster connector causing a short, meltage of plastics around connectors, all sorts of bulb illuminations and as previous owner seemed to use strong screenwash fluid, everthing was a nice blue and tracks in bulb holder oxidising nicely.
Loom wires breaking in the same body to rear hatch rubber tube causing random behaviour of rear wiper, tailgate sensor and demister. (demister also has 3 failed tracks )
The rear right light cluster seal water leak caused the connector to melt but the major issue here was the ingress of water that made its way into the boot, along the right hand side at the base of the inner wheel arch and down into the passenger footwell forming a lake. Obviously it was then absorbed by the sound deadening material stuck to the back of the interior carpet which because permenantly wet and then spread various quantities around. The sound deadening material in the drivers footwell right upto the firewall was wet/damp. Once I had the interior stripped upto the dash it sat for 3 weeks drying out.

I don’t know why you’re getting so hung up on diagrams, it’s such a simple circuit, 3 wires from the drivers door switch.

Just do as suggested in post 11 and follow the circuit and test the continuity

You’ve established the switch and the mirror works so it’s just the wiring….. 3 wires, you could have installed 3 new wires by now. Realistically if the car is full of water, that could be the cause of the problem

Only really because I produce technical documentation aswell and believe in producing a quality document which is highly accurate, covers all versions/options and 100% usable.
There was water in an area of the car rather than it being full of water. This area luckily did not have any wiring in it.
If only life was as simple as just 3 wires.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Only really because I produce technical documentation aswell and believe in producing a quality document which is highly accurate, covers all versions/options and 100% usable.

They made the grande from 2004 - 2009 then within that there were a mass of different options and specs

After 2009 they made the Evo which later become the “Punto” which again underwent different options and specs not to mention an overhaul of the electrical system.

Wiring looms are made by 3rd parties not fiat themselves they will have a number of suppliers not just one company and this can result in similar but not the same wiring colours being used:

This isn’t just a fiat thing, it affects all vehicles made by all manufacturers if you run out of one colour of wire you don’t just halt production you use the next best thing.

So wiring diagrams do change and evolve over time. If you produce technical drawings you’ll know that they go thought a mass of changes, versions and evolve over time.

There is no such thing as one document that covers all variations/versions/options.

 

[Punto669]

Wiring looms are made by 3rd parties not fiat themselves they will have a number of suppliers not just one company and this can result in similar but not the same wiring colours being used:

If a supplier is given a design & spec for a product then that is what is expected to be delivered, they cannot just change it because Bob in procurement forgot to submit the monthly 20amp HG colour wire order.
When the completed wiring looms (or any component/product) are delivered, goods in will inspect a random sample - they may even have a test rig to check each one before they are used on the assembly line.
If something is not to spec, it should be rejected.

This isn’t just a fiat thing, it affects all vehicles made by all manufacturers if you run out of one colour of wire you don’t just halt production you use the next best thing.

"Use the next best thing" - you run out of 20amp HG colour wire so you just stick in some spare 10amp wire you got plenty of in the WH...!
So if they run out of blade root seals on the Rolls Royce Trent production line they just get the silicon gun out the cupboard and carry on?
You might do that if you're Tim Toolman Taylor but if you're manufacturing components to someone elses design & spec and expect to be paid for them, no. See above
This all depends on your manufacturing strategy/model and which inventory system you use and whether you forecast sales for inventory/component ordering. You should never run out of inventory and have redundancy by using multiple suppliers.
Only events beyond your control like 2020/C19 could be expected to cause significant impact.

So wiring diagrams do change and evolve over time. If you produce technical drawings you’ll know that they go thought a mass of changes, versions and evolve over time.

There is no such thing as one document that covers all variations/versions/options.

You're right there is no 'one document' solution where more than a single variant with no options exist.
You produce a document to cover the main element of your product/manufacturing and within that you can include separate sections for variant(s) and option(s) as e-learn have done - but they should be correct, otherwise what's the point.
When your product/variant/option are updated or change, you publish revision(s) or additional chapters.
If the changes are significant then you release a new version of the document.
This cycle repeats until you stop producing that product.

Anyway who cares, all I pointed out was the diagram was wrong...

 

[PuntoHowTo]

If a supplier is given a design & spec for a product then that is what is expected to be delivered, they cannot just change it because Bob in procurement forgot to submit the monthly 20amp HG colour wire order.
When the completed wiring looms (or any component/product) are delivered, goods in will inspect a random sample - they may even have a test rig to check each one before they are used on the assembly line.
If something is not to spec, it should be rejected.

you're clearly counting on talking to people who don't know what they are talking about.

Having worked in engineering, and dealt with companies who couldn't get things right, there is a point where good enough gets accepted while you work with them to fix whatever problem's they are having.

"Use the next best thing" - you run out of 20amp HG colour wire so you just stick in some spare 10amp wire you got plenty of in the WH...!

You're just being stupid now. the "next best thing" is going to be a wire that meets the engineering requirements but is maybe a different colour of insulation, or perhaps a different insulation material, the "next best thing" may ultimately end up being something more expensive at a higher spec. but a few pence more per wire, is a lot cheaper than a whole factory grinding to a halt.

So if they run out of blade root seals on the Rolls Royce Trent production line they just get the silicon gun out the cupboard and carry on?

I think its safe to say, if you are dealing with life critical components, no they do not just break out a tube of silicon.

That being said, maybe not in this situation, but in many others there are acceptable deviations.

You might do that if you're Tim Toolman Taylor but if you're manufacturing components to someone elses design & spec and expect to be paid for them, no. See above
This all depends on your manufacturing strategy/model and which inventory system you use and whether you forecast sales for inventory/component ordering. You should never run out of inventory and have redundancy by using multiple suppliers.

Its a lovely idea that you should "never" run out of inventory, but in the real world, you know what... it does happen and engineering deviations are a fact of life if you want to keep shipping product.

Have you ever spent a week playing with many hundreds of samples of different mixtures of Epoxi, just to find the next best option to the one that was spec'd...... I have.

You're right there is no 'one document' solution where more than a single variant with no options exist.
You produce a document to cover the main element of your product/manufacturing and within that you can include separate sections for variant(s) and option(s) as e-learn have done - but they should be correct, otherwise what's the point.

The point is, when you are dealing with cars, if you gave your average dealership mechanic 50 pages of technical drawings for what is a simple 3 wire circuit, then it would take them far longer to read thought all that material than it would to fix the fault.

This is not an engineering issue, its a repair after the car is built so a document that can be used to cover most situations is sufficient and your average mechanic is capable of working out that the wire is still the same wire even if the colour code is slightly different.

Anyway who cares, all I pointed out was the diagram was wrong...

you cared enough to repeatedly complain about it and then write a multi-quote reply

 

[Punto669]

Oh so now you've gone from the "the next best thing" to talking about 'engineering' which can be highly specialised requiring using mafs & science (physics/materials) or a case of George down the road who has a lathe in his shed and tells his mates down the pub he's in 'engineering'. He might be a firm utiliser of the next best thing when he turns bowls from wood stumps.

Then there's companies like KONE who would make you sign a 50 page contract just to produce washers for them.

A 50 page technical document for a 3 wire circuit - whose retaken the lead in the stupid stakes now?

In highly automated manufacturing using robots, optical sensors, anything & everthing can be checked in multiple ways prior to and during assembly.
The robot/machine or worker checking components into the assembly line may be alerted to the tiniest deviation from the spec/options for the unit being produced.
The robot plugging a loom into another component/connector can do a final visual check all is as expected and if it isn't....

I didn't really care that much and since multi-quote was available to save me having to duplicate something manually, I replied full of loathing as seeing some of that text was abhorrent to my eyes...

Hope you had fun with the epoxy...

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well so far I've not suffered from 'dodgy electrics' as such but other design flaws that have affected the electrics in some way;
Rear wash wipe water feed tube failing in the body to rear hatch rubber tube then the water running down the loom straight to the rear left light cluster connector causing a short, meltage of plastics around connectors, all sorts of bulb illuminations and as previous owner seemed to use strong screenwash fluid, everthing was a nice blue and tracks in bulb holder oxidising nicely.
Loom wires breaking in the same body to rear hatch rubber tube causing random behaviour of rear wiper, tailgate sensor and demister. (demister also has 3 failed tracks )
The rear right light cluster seal water leak caused the connector to melt but the major issue here was the ingress of water that made its way into the boot, along the right hand side at the base of the inner wheel arch and down into the passenger footwell forming a lake. Obviously it was then absorbed by the sound deadening material stuck to the back of the interior carpet which because permenantly wet and then spread various quantities around. The sound deadening material in the drivers footwell right upto the firewall was wet/damp. Once I had the interior stripped upto the dash it sat for 3 weeks drying out.


Only really because I produce technical documentation aswell and believe in producing a quality document which is highly accurate, covers all versions/options and 100% usable.
There was water in an area of the car rather than it being full of water. This area luckily did not have any wiring in it.
If only life was as simple as just 3 wires.

Ah fellow ocd sufferer. Need to be abit more italian and chill. I do know what you mean tho. They probably wrote the doc without reference a the car. Like the majority of road tests. lol

 

[Punto669]

Ah fellow ocd sufferer. Need to be abit more italian and chill. I do know what you mean tho. They probably wrote the doc without reference a the car. Like the majority of road tests. lol

lol.... guilty as charged
I do drive it like an Italian when I get the chance and have been impressed with its handling at the time...